00;00;10;20 - 00;00;38;05
Jasmine
Hello, and welcome to Psych Attack. I'm Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald. Today I'm catching up with Rahim Thawer about envy and its impact in our social and sexual lives. Rahim is a racialized queer social worker who works as an instructor, a psychotherapist, clinical supervisor, consultant, public speaker, podcast host and writer. He calls Toronto home and currently teaches at the University of Alabama.

00;00;38;08 - 00;00;59;25
Jasmine
His work explores the intersection of mental health and systemic oppression. He has a particular interest in examining innovation in queer relationships and exploring how anti-racist, queer affirming psychoanalytic frameworks can support social workers, training therapists and organizational leaders. Welcome, Rahim.

00;00;59;28 - 00;01;04;28
Rahim
Thank you for having me, Jaz. I'm excited to be on psych attack.

00;01;05;01 - 00;01;16;10
Jasmine
It's so good to have you here. Rahim, could we start with some, backstory about yourself? How did you find yourself in psychotherapy and academia?

00;01;16;12 - 00;01;55;19
Rahim
Oh my goodness. Wow. Before I applied to graduate school for social work, I wanted to go to teachers college. So being an educator was always an interest of mine. And I picked social work over counseling psychology, for example, because there was a lot more discussion and curriculum, curricular materials around, systemic oppression and I felt great about doing the social work program in the master's program.

00;01;55;21 - 00;02;26;07
Rahim
And following my master's, I went in to do clinical work. But I found, as many people do after their master's degrees, that you don't get enough education or foundational education around psychotherapy. And so I was working at an HIV Aids organization and, and HIV and sexual health testing clinic. And then I worked as a therapist on a family health team.

00;02;26;09 - 00;03;03;08
Rahim
And as I was learning more and more about practice, I began teaching as a sessional lecturer and a couple of universities in Toronto. And I just got reconnected with the passion for teaching. And one of the things my students would frequently tell me is, hey, Rahim, you give so many great concrete, real life examples. And that really motivated me because I thought, I really need to be in practice and teaching.

00;03;03;08 - 00;03;31;18
Rahim
I really can't do just one or the other. And I'm passionate about all clinical education, but social work education in particular, because I want social workers to be able to think in therapeutic and psychodynamic ways. I want them to be able to think not just about systems, but out of the box ways of interpreting behavior and connecting with people.

00;03;31;20 - 00;04;11;05
Rahim
You know, I been an adjunct or sessional lecturer for a while, and then I saw this opportunity for a doctoral program at the University of Alabama. And this particular program is the focus I'm doing is actually on organizational leadership. But what I'm trying to do is look at how psychoanalytic theory can inform diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. I find a lot of people are trying to do Dei training, which, you know, if you're from the old school, it's just called Anti-oppression training.

00;04;11;07 - 00;04;40;03
Rahim
But that doesn't culminate in an organizational intervention in and of itself. Or it could be a component. But there's more to organizational behavior. And I'm really curious about, you know, the metrics of Dei where people get left out or the process of exclusion, what goes on in the psyche of the organization and how it mimics that of the family unit.

00;04;40;05 - 00;05;12;05
Rahim
And so as I began, like I pursued, I applied for this doctoral program and I simultaneously applied for a full time teaching job. And lucky me, I got all of it. So now I am extremely busy. I'm happy in the work, like it's quite exciting. And I'm here for just a few years and I like to learn. So academia, clinical practice, and then carving out kind of a new area of learning for myself is, is a dream.

00;05;12;06 - 00;05;15;10
Rahim
But it's a lot.

00;05;15;13 - 00;05;41;09
Jasmine
I have the fortune of speaking to really interesting, talented people like yourself through this podcast and through other work that I do. And I notice how they often say I was lucky enough because I know all the work that you would have put in, and I've read your content on your website, where I have to really, emphasize that I felt the same thing that students have said to you.

00;05;41;09 - 00;05;55;29
Jasmine
You know, today we're going to talk about envy. And I was reading through your write up on this topic and how it relates to clinical work. And I was getting really excited because it was so practical, and I felt like I was tagged in it a little bit, but I didn't like that.

00;05;55;29 - 00;05;56;20
Rahim
Because.

00;05;56;23 - 00;06;21;26
Jasmine
We've all had that experience of feeling a sense of envy towards other people. I was like, oh, that doesn't feel nice, does it? But it's your work is really practical and has that important theoretical and, practice experience behind it, but draws on that lived experience for, for folks who are reading it. So yeah, I good way to say basically, I think you clot talented and and luck is only a part of it.

00;06;21;28 - 00;06;29;18
Jasmine
And to segue to our topic today. So why the focus on envy? How did this come up for you in your work and in your writing?

00;06;29;20 - 00;07;01;26
Rahim
Well, it started with a keynote address I gave, I think it was in 2000 and. I want to say 2017, where I did a keynote address at the Gulf Sexuality Conference, which is at a university in a small and mid-sized city in Ontario on shame and sexuality. And I took that to the bank. I ran with it for a bit.

00;07;01;28 - 00;07;32;15
Rahim
And then I was like, you know what? I need to write this up. Like, I can't just keep presenting. I'm tired. I'm exhausted of talking about shame. I need to write it up. And I wrote it up. And then I thought, okay, let's go to envy next. And there was this moment where I decided, and I haven't followed through on it completely, but that I really wanted to explore elements or aspects of our mental health that aren't talked about as much.

00;07;32;17 - 00;08;06;26
Rahim
So like there's shame and then envy, but there's also like, I'm interested in doing a paper or really thinking about lying, or misery because I'm curious about my own relationship to misery, but I'm like, oh, I want to do a deep dive into misery. I did a deep dive into nostalgia about a year ago, because I was preparing for a presentation for older LGBTQ folks, and we talked about the the good and the bad of nostalgia.

00;08;06;29 - 00;08;15;00
Rahim
So I kind of I don't want to say these are obscure concepts, but when we talk about mental health, we're usually talking about anxiety and depression.

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Jasmine
Totally.

00;08;15;28 - 00;08;44;25
Rahim
And I'm thinking like, let's just go slightly off the page and then and discuss another emotional experience, a phenomena, if you will. You know, like another example is I've met lots of clients, not lots, but a handful of clients where I'm like, oh, this person is so hard to help. And I'm not blaming them. But I think about like, I have a relationship to misery.

00;08;44;25 - 00;09;17;26
Rahim
What's their relationship to misery? And I get curious about, like, what does it mean to be masochistic in a way that not even in like a super pathologizing way, but how have you, like, adapted, adjusted to your environment in a way that's adaptive? But what it looks like is masochism. Like you're hard on yourself all the time. You don't let anybody in, you're super self-critical.

00;09;17;26 - 00;09;42;00
Rahim
You're around other people that make you feel bad. Anyone else's suggestions couldn't work for you. You know, like that's the kind of client that I've felt frustrated with at some point in my life. But I've also been that person, and I'm curious about this kind of masochism. All that to say, I'm curious about human experience and talking about mental health.

00;09;42;00 - 00;09;50;04
Rahim
That's slightly, you know, just off left field from what the dominant, discourse tends to be.

00;09;50;06 - 00;09;50;26
Jasmine
Yes.

00;09;50;26 - 00;09;54;22
Rahim
So that's how I landed at envy. Yeah.

00;09;54;24 - 00;10;16;26
Jasmine
I find that so fascinating because I hadn't thought of the different topics you've written about in that way, but that makes so much sense that we do think a lot about mental health is that clinical, pathological and anxiety and depression. But these different aspects of emotion that relate to mental health that, you know, it's all a continuum.

00;10;16;26 - 00;10;19;01
Jasmine
And we're higher or lower and all these things that we have.

00;10;19;01 - 00;10;19;19
Rahim
Experience.

00;10;19;21 - 00;10;23;10
Jasmine
And all these things. Very interesting. Yeah.

00;10;23;17 - 00;10;56;08
Rahim
And look, when it comes to envy, I wrote about it because I experienced it. You know, I have found myself in clinical supervision saying I kind of envy my client. You know, sure, things are challenging in their lives. And this is particularly when I was working at the sexual health clinic, people were in distress. They were when they were seeing me, they were struggling sometimes with substance use, particularly like cam sex.

00;10;56;11 - 00;11;16;06
Rahim
They were anxious about their test results. And then I would go to clinical supervision and say, you know what? I envy this person. And my supervisor is like, tell me more. Y you know, and I would say, well, their lives I know this stress it when they come to see me, but their lives seem like a lot of fun.

00;11;16;09 - 00;11;38;01
Rahim
They're having a lot of experiences that I wish I could have there something to sit with there, you know, where do you go after that? And that's part of what my paper was about. Like, does that motivate me to do drugs or be more adventurous? Does that make me feel gratitude for not having the things that come with the fun?

00;11;38;03 - 00;11;48;12
Rahim
Does that lead me to a place of grief for feeling like there's a part of life I miss out on, or I won't get to experience? Like it? I'm curious about where the envy takes me.

00;11;48;14 - 00;12;11;23
Jasmine
Yes, one of the things it's early on because we've already gone deep into some of these this topic now, but I want to come back out just for a moment, because one of the fundamental things that I didn't have clear in my mind and wasn't conscious that I should have clear in my mind until I read your work, was the difference between envy and jealousy, and I wonder if you might talk a little bit about that.

00;12;11;25 - 00;12;17;19
Rahim
Yes. I'm sorry I glossed over it, I think, yeah, I forget his name.

00;12;17;24 - 00;12;20;08
Jasmine
What's excellent.

00;12;20;10 - 00;12;57;21
Rahim
Well, envy is usually dyadic, meaning it, involves two people, and jealousy usually is three people. It's triads. And we experience jealousy when there's a third person object entity that feels like it threatens the relation ship we have with one of the other people. Envy is about us longing for or vying for wanting to possess something that someone else has.

00;12;57;23 - 00;13;30;29
Rahim
So, for example, I could be envious of somebody physical appearance, their money, their achievements, their social skills, the home they live in, that kind of thing. Envy is something they possess. It could be a physical attribute. It could be an achievement. It could be how they move in the world. Jealousy is more like, you know. I see this person flirting with my partner, and I find that threatening.

00;13;31;02 - 00;13;59;18
Rahim
Or I see that my best friend is spending a lot of time with her new boyfriend, and they have some feelings about that. Jealousy is tricky because not everyone can identify it so quickly. People tend to be quite defensive. So instead of saying I'm jealous, I might say no, I'm not jealous. I actually I feel disrespected or I feel like I've been neglected.

00;13;59;20 - 00;14;10;06
Rahim
That might be true, but I would argue that jealousy is a stigmatized word that we don't want to take on. And it's probably part of the puzzle.

00;14;10;09 - 00;14;11;08
Jasmine

00;14;11;10 - 00;14;38;20
Rahim
Sometimes people feel jealousy when, you know someone spends a lot of time with their pet and, you know, and a lot of attention goes to a pet or a new child instead of a partner, it could be an ailing parent, you know, like, you know, let's say mom gets a heart attack or has a fall and all of the family's time is like about helping mom or going back and forth to the hospital.

00;14;38;22 - 00;14;52;28
Rahim
You're not going to say, in that moment I feel jealous that you're, you know, you're giving your mom all this time, but you might get resentful and the resentment could be part of the package of jealousy.

00;14;53;01 - 00;15;12;20
Jasmine
Isn't that interesting because it moves you away from what you actually want. You know, it's like once we're like I'm not being treated. Rather than saying using it as something for comparison to say, hey you know when you show that affection to our dog, I'd really like for you to I think I like that too. You know, they really enjoy it.

00;15;12;20 - 00;15;21;08
Jasmine
And I think it's instead of separating out, not being respected or being given what you deserve, it's like you're pushing that person further away from you.

00;15;21;11 - 00;15;43;06
Rahim
Absolutely. And so, I mean, resentment usually leads to passive aggressiveness. It might hurt somebody, but it doesn't have the intended effect of bringing them closer to you for the most part. And, you know, I can just imagine someone being very warm and cuddly with their pet and someone else looking and thinking, I wish you were that judgment free with me.

00;15;43;11 - 00;16;22;14
Rahim
And you named it already jazz. It's about when you see this occur and your jealousy gets activated. What is your underlying unmet need? You know, and maybe it's to be loved unconditionally. It's to be cared for. It's to be recognized or respected. It's to be considered, you know, it could be so many little things. When it comes to envy, however, there isn't always like the level of relationship between between you and the person you envy can look like so many things.

00;16;22;16 - 00;16;45;24
Rahim
All the things I talked about with jealousy were about people who are already kind of close. So I find envy can really take you to a hard place when you put that desire. I want what that other person possesses onto somebody. You don't know that well because then you want to be their friend. You want proximity to them.

00;16;45;24 - 00;17;09;11
Rahim
You want to be like them. You want their life, but you don't actually know that much about them. You imagine that because they have the thing you want, which is usually social skills, wealth, achievement, certain attributes, status. You assume other parts of their life are great, but we have no idea.

00;17;09;13 - 00;17;22;25
Jasmine
That's a really good point. And in reading your work, I started to think about something that hadn't really been on my radar before and really stuck with me is quite powerful, so I'd like to talk about it.

00;17;22;27 - 00;17;23;17
Rahim
Please do.

00;17;23;19 - 00;17;43;16
Jasmine
When we might have envy. And for someone of the same sex and with same sex attracted and how that can be can kind of complicated situation, or add to that experience of envy at do I want to be like this person? Do I want to be with this person? Is it a combination of both and hopefully I haven't misinterpreted.

00;17;43;21 - 00;17;44;15
Rahim
You know, you have.

00;17;44;15 - 00;17;46;21
Jasmine
Not fully explained that.

00;17;46;24 - 00;18;16;10
Rahim
No, totally. I think that is a big part of every young man. I don't know about every but a lot of young queer people's developmental process, you know, figuring out who we are in the world. And we grow up in a binary world that comes with these rigid scripts about what masculinity and femininity is. And so if I think about myself, you know, the guys that I wanted to be around, it was confusing.

00;18;16;10 - 00;18;40;06
Rahim
Am I attracted to you or do I want to be like you, or is there something about my attachment that's getting activated where I think, wow, you're being nice to me. That doesn't happen very often and you're the same gender. I should hold you as close to me as possible, because where will I find somebody else like you?

00;18;40;09 - 00;19;04;15
Rahim
But that's attachment. If I'm thinking just envy, I might also start emulating the other the way the other person behaves. And my proximity to them and the motivation for my relationship might be about envy. Now, that doesn't have to be so bad. Like, I wouldn't want people to think, okay, well, I got to do a check on who my friends are.

00;19;04;19 - 00;19;27;16
Rahim
Are they just close to me because they're envious of me? But it doesn't take much for us to all think about somebody we recognize when they were in a position of power, status or notoriety where we're like, I kind of do want to be a bit closer to them. I do want them to notice me. I do want them to see me.

00;19;27;19 - 00;19;48;13
Rahim
It's like we want a part of whatever it is they have right? If you I mean, if your envy takes you to a place of hostility, you can say, I like what you have to. I want to possess you. I want to be you or I want to destroy you. It can come out in a form of hostility.

00;19;48;15 - 00;20;06;28
Rahim
That's also why people will sometimes say like if you, if you say, you know, I really hate this person, I'm really angry with them. I think a person might be like, oh, I wonder if you actually like them or you want to be them, or there's a part of them that you wish you had, you know, like your disowned part.

00;20;07;00 - 00;20;36;09
Rahim
Yeah, I notice for a lot of people, you know, when I talk about like systemic oppression, people will often talk about, how this kind of man walks through the world. There's a type and it's super activating. And I'm sometimes saying I'm like, yeah, that person represents certain things. And I wonder if part of you wished you could do that or be like that, or have that energy.

00;20;36;11 - 00;20;53;02
Rahim
And part of your anger is like, it's about the lack. It's about what you don't have or what the world hasn't allowed you to have. And then in that case, your envy is about systemic privilege that other people have, that you don't get to have.

00;20;53;05 - 00;21;20;00
Jasmine
Super interesting. It's really powerful. What do you think that means in a therapeutic context when you're supporting someone and you might be picky picking up on these aspects. Like what? And maybe it's more general than that, really. Maybe it's like tips foolishness of you may be more or less aware of of, someone that you might envy, ways to think about and manage that envy in a productive way.

00;21;20;08 - 00;21;48;27
Rahim
Yeah, I think we've gotten to this, like, funny place of saying, like, here's a healthy way to deal with something versus an unhealthy way. And I can appreciate that some ways of dealing with things are more adaptive, like they will work out better for you, they will be better received. But I would also say if you feel enraged and hostile, as long as you're not hurting anyone, you could sit with that for a bit and just say, I'm feeling this way.

00;21;48;27 - 00;22;08;25
Rahim
You know, that's where my knees take you, me for a little while. That's also okay. I don't want to jump to say that that's unhealthy. But I think for a lot of people, naming the envy and the feelings around it is like a big step can be an intervention in and of itself. And then I would say the next step is, where does that envy take you?

00;22;08;28 - 00;22;36;25
Rahim
Right? I think for some people it might motivate you. So if you're envious about some other person's gym body, it could be that it motivates you. By the same token, you know you could envy someone's gym body and say. That requires a whole life change that I don't have or don't want to do. I've been in this place before where I, you know, I'm so envious.

00;22;36;26 - 00;23;06;08
Rahim
But all these gay men have and I have to say to myself, but that's like, that's what I want in that particular moment because I feel inferior. My shame gets activated because I feel less than, and then I'm envious. And when I actually just sit with just the grief and then recommit to how I want to live my life, I just don't want to live my life.

00;23;06;11 - 00;23;19;19
Rahim
Super concerned with muscularity, I, you know, I just I really don't want that to be my life. And I'm also allowed to feel shame and envy at times for people who look that fabulous way.

00;23;19;22 - 00;23;40;23
Jasmine
I really appreciate you calling out that. It's almost like a toxic positivity or that focus on health, right? What's healthy? What's adaptive? Because all of those things that are tough to sit with, those uncomfortable emotions, we have those for a reason. They are adaptive in some way. It's that how you act on that? I really appreciate you calling that out.

00;23;40;26 - 00;24;02;23
Jasmine
And I, I had a big grin on my face while you're explaining that gym example, because I, I feel this and I think about this a lot. My partner and I do CrossFit and so this is completely scalable. But compared to gym workouts I had done before, the people who go to CrossFit are incredibly athletic and sculpted, and they can just do incredible things.

00;24;02;23 - 00;24;21;11
Jasmine
And I'm like, yeah, barely hanging on to a ball. And I I'll leave. You know, sometimes I think I, you know, I wish I had that. I'm your shame of where I am at with my strength on my body. And then once that passes, I go, I don't want to go every single day. I don't want to completely change the way that I eat.

00;24;21;12 - 00;24;41;05
Jasmine
Oh, like I love to read and write. I spend a lot of time sitting down. I don't want to lose those things. So like you say, you know, reflecting on that and then recommitting to what your real priorities are and having those experiences in the context of your life more broadly, not that 45 or 60 minutes that you might be at the gym.

00;24;41;08 - 00;24;42;25
Jasmine
I feel that deeply.

00;24;42;27 - 00;25;09;10
Rahim
Yeah, well, I'm glad. I think also like, you know, we're just starting a new year and I'm not big on resolutions, especially not in this part of the world because it's our winter. And I don't think that's a smart time to make big lifestyle changes. Whereas in Australia maybe it makes more sense setting an intention for like what's working for me and what's not, you know, envy, shame, they're not inherently bad.

00;25;09;10 - 00;25;37;22
Rahim
They teach us something. They're adaptive. They help us connect with our unmet needs, our stories, our wants. It's an opportunity to reflect on how often am I in a space where my shame and or envy gets activated, like, if it's every day, you know, I maybe need to change something. Yes, I need to be in an environment where I feel good about myself, at least more than half of the time.

00;25;37;24 - 00;25;47;27
Jasmine
Yeah, totally. It's a really good point. I put out to this, like, attack audience to see if they had any questions for you on this topic. Do you mind if we take a look at some of those?

00;25;47;29 - 00;25;49;12
Rahim
Let's do it.

00;25;49;14 - 00;26;12;21
Jasmine
Amazing. So we have a couple here and some people preferred not to be specifically mentioned, but we have a frequently and, friend of mine, Kelly Shaw, who has asked a question as well. So the first question is, has envy gotten worse as a result of social media, or are we just more aware of it, and how would we even be able to know the answer to that question?

00;26;12;21 - 00;26;14;09
Jasmine
Like, how would we measure that?

00;26;14;11 - 00;26;55;12
Rahim
Yeah, it's a good question. I don't have. Like a scientific evidence base, yes or no? But what I can say is, you know, from what I'm understanding in the literature and what like the conferences I go to, there is a strong correlation between time spent on social media and unhappiness and depression along with anxiety. So I would suggest then that, you know, if what's going on on our screens activates our envy, then yes, it could be getting worse.

00;26;55;14 - 00;27;07;12
Rahim
I also would suggest that a bit of envy, or if you think about it as longing, wanting to possess something, ideals. A lot of this is marketed to us.

00;27;07;14 - 00;27;08;08
Jasmine

00;27;08;10 - 00;27;47;06
Rahim
And I think capitalism thrives on our envy and our desire to be something else. And if you're on your phone, you're getting ads, and those ads are capitalizing on your insecurities as your scrolling. And you pause even a millisecond on the diet pill, the gym, and the thing that will make you smarter and ten seconds, whatever it is, you know, the algorithm picks up on that.

00;27;47;09 - 00;28;11;00
Rahim
And so it could be that you are a good consumer and you're like, oh, this doesn't affect me. Or I turned off all my filters. You could also be somebody who buys a lot of garbage. Thinking is going to make you a better human. Hopefully you realize at some point, you know, this nifty kitchen tool is not going to improve your life that much.

00;28;11;02 - 00;28;31;05
Rahim
I had to learn that after many nifty kitchen tools, somebody who just orders takeout, my thing. So yes, I think it does make our envy worse and maybe makes our mental health worse. I think we could also take a step back and say, like, how seductive is the thing that I'm looking at? And is it giving me anything?

00;28;31;06 - 00;28;51;29
Rahim
Am I learning anything? Am I entertained? I think those are the two categories. Maybe there's something else, or am I feeling more connected to other people? You know, you can figure out like what domains and to have a bit of an assessment for like when you need to stop or what you need to engage in versus not. I've unfollowed on purpose, even close.

00;28;51;29 - 00;29;15;13
Rahim
Even friends who post a lot of gym bodies, people who are counseling at a wedding, I don't know, I don't know what does people do for work, but they're constantly everyone has those friends are constantly at a wedding and it's out of town and I'm like, I don't love this life. I just want to muda because I don't know if I feel envious even.

00;29;15;14 - 00;29;24;08
Rahim
It just makes me feel bad. It makes me feel something I'm like, I not enough of that. So I think we need to be better curators as well.

00;29;24;11 - 00;29;46;17
Jasmine
Yes, it's exactly the word that just popped to my mind. You're thinking about curating instead of completely and completely out, because there is something to gain from connection and being able to communicate, I think, with people all over the world, but working out what your triggers or the stuff that's making you not feel okay and and limiting that, I think that's great advice.

00;29;46;19 - 00;30;10;15
Rahim
For those of us who are content creators. You know, like I'm online creating things. You're creating things. I think we're also susceptible to the comparison trap of like, followers. And I was talking to another therapist recently about what does it mean to even have that many followers? Does that mean people consume your work? Does it mean they learn from it?

00;30;10;17 - 00;30;24;04
Rahim
Are you actually an influencer? As in, do you have an influence? Is that a power you want? Does that in return affect your life in a positive way? Who the hell knows?

00;30;24;06 - 00;30;27;15
Jasmine
It's like the subtle about it. It's sin. Yeah.

00;30;27;18 - 00;30;29;09
Rahim
Yeah yeah.

00;30;29;12 - 00;30;51;14
Jasmine
Because you want to share what you're creating. And part of that is because we wouldn't do it if we weren't really interested intrinsically in the content, but then sometimes it can shift to, well, how much attention does it get or how much response. And so now why am I creating this or using social media. And yeah, that that can have a definite uncomfortable comparative aspects to it for sure.

00;30;51;15 - 00;30;55;28
Jasmine
Yeah I shouldn't say that was a smart like yeah.

00;30;56;01 - 00;30;56;17
Rahim
Yeah.

00;30;56;20 - 00;30;58;01
Jasmine
Welcome to the club.

00;30;58;04 - 00;31;09;08
Rahim
I'm their sister of I'm not immune. You know I'm like I think about these things but I'm also living it. Yes. As are we are so yeah.

00;31;09;14 - 00;31;19;06
Jasmine
Yeah I think we could talk for a long time on that. Yeah. It might be quite therapeutic. So, I'll wait till I'm paying you for that.

00;31;19;09 - 00;31;22;12
Rahim
And I'm out of Melbourne.

00;31;22;14 - 00;31;35;06
Jasmine
Okay, so another question was. And Rahim, I think we've touched on this a little bit, but I just want to phrase the question as it was asked, can NZ be cured or managed? For example, for things like CBT.

00;31;35;09 - 00;32;02;13
Rahim
Sure. So okay so cognitive behavioral therapy looks at the connection between our thoughts feelings and behaviors. So if you are a client I might say is there a situation that activates your envy. Let's say you said we're at family dinner and my uncle is asking my sibling a lot of questions about their work life or their family life.

00;32;02;15 - 00;32;29;22
Rahim
And you say, my my envy gets activated in that context because I feel overlooked, for example, or I wish people would give me that kind of attention. Then we would say, okay, what are the thoughts that show up for you? And we would try to see if there's any unhelpful thinking styles there and if it warrants looking at more helpful ways of thinking or alternative thoughts.

00;32;29;25 - 00;32;51;09
Rahim
So CBT can be useful instead of trying to treat it right away, though, we might even take a step back and say, what is it? Tell me about this context, this setting, and how I fit in. Is there a gender dynamic here? Does this tell me something about the family? Is there a way in which they see me that I want to change?

00;32;51;11 - 00;33;16;00
Rahim
I guess sound like a broken record? But I said this to a friend of mine this summer. You know, a lot of things can be boiled down to shame and grief, you know? So the moment you feel like you're overlooked or you feel inferior, you could just say, I feel an immense kind of loss around what this experience could be.

00;33;16;02 - 00;33;54;09
Rahim
In the same way where that envy comes up, you might just revert to some grief and think, oh, I wish there was more interest. I guess I'll have to find that somewhere else, you know? Right. So I'm hesitant to say that, or to put the onus on the individual to cure themselves. If you feel chronically envious and your chronic comparing yourself to somebody and you know that's paired with the kind of emotional dysregulation like he's your easily distressed, high anxiety, you know, you want to withdraw a lot or you feel like you want to attack people.

00;33;54;11 - 00;34;32;29
Rahim
That's what I mean by dysregulation. There may be something a bit more complex underneath. That you would want to talk to a professional about. You know, sometimes people have a kind of past trauma where a core feature is chronic invalidation. And that makes navigating the world really challenging. And so I'm a person with that kind of history, might then feel envious in every relationship, might feel activated in every social interaction, and envy is a component of it.

00;34;32;29 - 00;34;39;03
Rahim
But there's an underlying emotion regulation that needs to be attended to.

00;34;39;05 - 00;34;52;29
Jasmine
Right. And I think that might lead us then, into this last question, which is almost like the opposite end of that have come some people don't seem to get envious, or perhaps and not as impacted by envy.

00;34;53;02 - 00;35;24;17
Rahim
I can only guess. I can only guess, I can speculate. I think family of origin is very important, and our experiences and the way we like, the way we are cast as kids, as being in competition with one another, you know, with your cousins, your siblings, your classmates, that kind of thing. So it's my belief that that has a huge imprint, a huge impact.

00;35;24;20 - 00;35;51;24
Rahim
The other side of that is how much praise and affirmation have you gotten throughout your life about your accomplishments or just for being you, you know, do you get celebrated enough? Because if there's something that you're longing for and that need has gone unmet for a long time, you know, you might carry that with you kind of in your backpack and like, here's my need.

00;35;51;24 - 00;36;26;11
Rahim
Can somebody meet this need, you know, another element that we can't overlook is, I think, like, systemic oppression and privilege, some people really are. They're handed a set of cards that work really well for them and open doors. And somebody who's witnessing other people's doors being open while their doors and windows are being shut is going to have a reaction, you know?

00;36;26;14 - 00;37;03;04
Rahim
And so being marginalized, not having access to opportunity or witnessing over and over how other people can kind of sail while you're doing some heavy lifting, that can bring up like a lot of resentment. My mind is going to an example of a workshop I did with a group, managers at a nonprofit health organization, and the CEO said to me, I'm, I know a lot of people that experience Envy and Rahim the way you described it.

00;37;03;06 - 00;37;30;06
Rahim
Yeah, they get kind of hostile, and they say something passive aggressive about my achievement or my role, but I don't think I experience that. And she was like, why do you think that is? And I thought, you know, I wonder if you've just built a lot of confidence around what you have to offer and you've stepped out of the game of comparing yourself, but part of it is part of the the structure within which you live your daily life.

00;37;30;14 - 00;37;51;28
Rahim
You go into work and you're at the top of the ladder. You know, it's not that you don't have insecurities, but you're not doing the same mental gymnastics and you haven't had to for quite a while. So it might be that that position you're in makes you the object of envy for other people, which can make you uncomfortable.

00;37;52;00 - 00;38;10;22
Rahim
It can also be a microaggression. And, you know, if you're a woman in a high position and people are hostile because you have made it and they haven't, somehow, you know, but if you're at the top of that ladder and you have been for a while, you might not be in that headspace. You might not be primed for envy.

00;38;10;22 - 00;38;13;01
Rahim
In the same way.

00;38;13;03 - 00;38;28;26
Jasmine
I really like how you've drawn it away from just being individual difference too. Inherently, we're in an environment, and that is going to mean that this is more or less relevant for other people. That's a really eloquent description there. Yeah. Very interesting.

00;38;28;28 - 00;38;55;20
Rahim
I was in Toronto for the winter holidays, and I both pedal body positivity and talk about hating my body at times. I'm like all of these things can happen. And I wasn't feeling great about my body in Toronto. But I love Toronto because it's full of all my gay friends. And as soon as I got back to Alabama, I told my bestie I was like, oh my God, I feel skinnier in America.

00;38;55;23 - 00;38;57;07
Jasmine
So relative.

00;38;57;09 - 00;39;18;03
Rahim
Yes. And not that slim and skinny should be a measure of wellness, but what the hell? It's deep in my psyche. That's where my mind went. That's what I noticed. And so my point isn't that I'm shallow. My point is that the environment has a huge impact on how we see ourselves.

00;39;18;05 - 00;39;39;16
Jasmine
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. It's really important to keep that in mind. Yeah. Wow. I really enjoyed this conversation. Like I said, there's aspects of this where I mean, I appreciate your candor and honesty of being someone who has expertise, but also acknowledging that you are human and not immune to these things. And and I definitely acknowledge that for myself.

00;39;39;17 - 00;40;09;23
Jasmine
And, you know, not being an expert in this space, but also not sitting back objectively asking questions but feeling, yeah, you know, I've felt these things before. And so I hopefully this is interesting from a kind of conceptual perspective for people who have a listen, but also from an experiential perspective of reflecting on the experiences that they've had and, and will have, because it's not something that we're going to be able to shut off, especially if we're constantly pushing ourselves to do better and achieve things and putting ourselves in challenging situations.

00;40;09;23 - 00;40;17;28
Jasmine
And that upward comparison will be there. Rahim, that was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

00;40;18;00 - 00;40;19;14
Rahim
For having me.

00;40;19;17 - 00;40;35;07
Jasmine
I wonder if there's any shameless self-promotion that we can do, but I know you've got excellent things in the works and that we'll talk about them in later episodes, so maybe you might want to just mention briefly the things that you have happening in that you're working on, that listeners can look out for.

00;40;35;10 - 00;41;02;04
Rahim
Sure. Sure. Look, if people want to follow me and look at some of my my writing, I publish on medium all the time. If you go to ladyativan.com and I don't know if anyone is, it translates. It's an anti-anxiety medication here. And so I turned it into a bit of a drag name. So ladyativan.com, it'll take you to all my social links and in particular my essays, like the one on envy.

00;41;02;04 - 00;41;25;06
Rahim
I recently wrote one on a porn consumption and like how it impacts our fantasies and our self-esteem. I've also got a book coming out June 1st of 2025 called The Mental Health Guide for Assistant Trans Queer Guys. It's a self-help guide published by New Harbinger Press. And I'm super excited about it. And, I'll tell you more about it later.

00;41;25;06 - 00;41;29;04
Rahim
But for now, go to lady@event.com and check it out.

00;41;29;06 - 00;41;39;20
Jasmine
Amazing. Thanks again.