Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:00:27):
Hello and welcome to Psych Attack. I'm Dr. Jasmine B. Macdonald. Today I'm catching up with Dr. Miiamaaria Kujala to hear about her research on human dog interaction. Miiamaaria studies how humans understand dog communication, how dogs understand humans and the factors affecting the interaction between the two species. Things like culture, human personality, and dog behavior. Welcome.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:00:55):
Thank you for this nice introduction. I'm glad to be here.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:00:58):
I'm really pleased to have you here as well. I'm very excited. Your work is super interesting and I just love anything related to dogs as well. Do you find that kind of reaction when you're speaking to people about your research? They kind of find it exciting or interesting because of that canine aspect?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:01:15):
Yeah, I think all around the world, dogs are becoming parts of human families. So there are so many like dog people around that. Yeah. Often I find that response. . .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:01:29):
When I reached out to you, you had mentioned that you spent some time in Melbourne, in Australia. Mm-Hmm. , I think you said it was when you did maybe a high school exchange, is that right?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:01:39):
Yeah, yeah. High school exchange when I was 16, 17. So a while ago. .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:01:48):
And how was that?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:01:49):
It was a really nice experience and I still feel like Australia is my second home country and Melbourne has a special place in my heart, actually stayed in Hillsville, Uhhuh that is known for the Hillsville Sanctuary, at least around Melbourne. So yeah. Yeah, that was a really nice experience.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:02:10):
How is it, you know, when you say it's like your second home, how is it different or similar to Finland?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:02:17):
Oh, that's a tough question.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:02:18):
Like I guess in the way that it resonated with you. Yeah.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:02:22):
Mm. I think people are very hospital. There's a very high level of hospitality in both countries. Fins are far more reserved. I love the no worries. Also way of doing things . That was really nice. In both countries they're like, I don't know. There's no pretense in a way. We are what we are. Right. So very like genuine people.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:02:51):
Yeah,

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:02:52):
Homie.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:02:53):
I love that. That's really nice to know. You mentioned almost as I hit record that you changed your name because of your visit to Australia

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:03:03):
. Yeah, so my year in Melbourne was so influential that I actually added a second name. I changed my name so I have another second name, which is Victoria . This is how I changed my name.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:03:20):
Oh, that's so awesome.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:03:22):
Yes. I'm Mia Maria Victoria .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:03:27):
So I was reading your work leading up to our conversation and well actually before that, that's why I reached out and I noticed that you have Mia Maria v Kuala. Yes. So, and now I know what the V stands for.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:03:42):
That stands for Australia .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:03:45):
Oh, I'm getting goosebumps. That's such a lovely, obviously a nice impact. And I mean Mia, Maria, Melbourne Kuala doesn't really have

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:03:54):

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:03:55):
Or Australia doesn't really have the same thing.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:03:59):
No.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:03:59):
Like that works quite nicely 'cause it's, it's a lovely name.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:04:03):
Yeah. Yeah. I felt like the year in Melbourne has such a big effect on me that, you know, I want to carry it with me at all times. So yes, Victoria stays with me.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:04:13):
That's such an important time of life. 17, 18, you know. Mm-Hmm.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:04:19):
Yeah,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:04:19):
I have my 16-year-old brother coming to stay with us this weekend. He lives in Canberra and my husband and I have him visiting to explore and it has the two of us in the last couple of days thinking about what is this 16, 17-year-old interested in and how can we make sure he has a great trip. And I was reflecting on yeah, what an important time of your life that is and how you are exploring lots of things for the first time, but you also feel like you know everything or I felt like I knew everything .

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:04:48):
Yeah. I guess it's spreading your wings time and like learning what you can do and all the different things in the world that you could explore. Yeah, it's nice time.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:05:02):
And as Melbourne Indian, I think we or Melbourne Indian, I don't know. 'cause I'm a fake Melbourne person. I'm not originally from here. I just love living here. We pride ourself on coffee. Is that something that you had an interest in before you came or that you took away with you? Or not a coffee person?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:05:19):
Actually, now that you mentioned it. I didn't drink coffee before my year in Australia, but I started drinking with instant coffee during my stay. So yes, actually Finland I think has the highest rate of coffee consumption per person. .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:05:38):
Okay.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:05:39):
We drink more coffee than even Italians. ,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:05:43):
Interesting.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:05:44):
Italians, they drink the espresso, the small ones. So you know, we drink the normal coffee so it's always more

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:05:52):
Right. Like the espresso shop with milk like lattes, bigger drinks like that. Mm. Drinks.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:05:57):
Yeah. Yeah. The ones that coffee makers make , . Yeah. When I started drinking coffee in Australia. Yeah. Now that you mentioned it,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:06:07):
another, the synergy between the two places. Okay. Mm-Hmm,

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:06:12):
Exactly.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:06:13):
Amazing. Well that's nice if you're going to have a cold call researcher from the other side of the world contact you and then realize we have the shared knowledge or appreciation or shared experience. That's a good way to start I think. Mm-Hmm. . So for our conversation, talking about you and your work today, I wondered if we might be able to start with some background. How did you get interested in psychology? What did your journey look like?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:06:40):
Yeah, and that's a very interesting reflection back to the track. I guess I have always been really thoughtful person in a way that I'm thinking of how things happen and especially I've been interested about the human mind for as long as I can remember now. Even as a child I started thinking of what is this me who is thinking and like feeling and what is this me who exists? So I guess that sort of leads towards philosophy and psychology.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:07:15):
Totally little existential. I'm loving it.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:07:19):
Yeah. Yeah. Like even as a child. So I guess that's always been within me interest towards how is this possible? It's me who existed, what is this me?

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:07:31):
Right?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:07:32):
What are the building blocks of me? , I guess egoistic also. But if you start going along that path, then of course, well it's also interesting like what are the other people then? Like how does the mind of different people, how is it different? How come you can be like very in sync on the same wavelength with some person but not the other. Yeah. What's that about? Like how can we be so similar to others but not to others . So how does this communication between the minds work always found that fascinating too.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:08:11):
Yeah. And then, you know, I wanna hear more about your journey and and your professional career and where you're based now, but I wanna jump in there and say it's quite suiting that you ended up looking at temperament and personality then . .

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:08:23):
Yeah, . Yeah, that too. But it took a while for me to get there, actually. I guess I started off with like this more philosophical way of thinking of things and reading, but then playing with words and concepts was not enough for me. I really wanted to go to the physics, like what are the building blocks? How does this all work? So that's how I ended up in neurosciences, I guess, to try to find out how the brains work to create minds. And there I started off with I guess trying to put together how the brain works, how the mind works. And now I'm still don't get it. .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:09:15):
The more we know, the more we appreciate that we don't know.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:09:19):
Yeah, exactly.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:09:20):
And how amazing is neuroscience with the brain trying to understand itself, you know? Mm. Like I love that as the, you know, this specialized area of psychology and biology of this amazing organ. Trying to understand how it works itself. I think that's pretty cool.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:09:38):
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Well usually the way we try to understand things is to do averages. So of course also neuroscience. You find out the pattern after you average quite a lot of things together. So you have sort of like a median way of doing things. So I guess that only more recently maybe we have had the possibility to try to tease out like different ways so that it's not only average but actually different people have different ways of brain function. Yeah. It takes time to get there. Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:10:18):
And your work extends beyond humans, you know, as interspecies work. So why dogs? How did you come into this focus on dog owner relationships and the way that humans and dogs think?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:10:32):
Yeah, that's also like a long story I guess. I started off with neurosciences for my PhD and for some 10 years of my career I studied how human brains work and how the functional, your imaging, how the brain normally works. And after that time there was a research going on at the faculty of veterinary medicine in my home city in Helsinki. And there they had study about dog mines, like how the dogs for example look at computer screens, what sort of things they follow with their gaze. And I found that really fascinating. I think they pioneered and advanced that field of science a lot. And I joined that research. So that's how I sort of switched from human. I switched from humans to dogs for a little while, well 10 years or so . I continued that research with the brilliant group that we have there.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:11:35):
I studied how the dog mind works. After that I changed university and I had to sort of come up with another line of research and this new place, it, it's a department of psychology where I joined and they had no dog studies there. So I, I was considering starting the human research line again. But then again after having studied dogs for the last 10 years, I felt like I can't just completely ditch that and I don't want to because that's a fascinating world. So then I started thinking of this research that why can't I study the both ends of the leash?

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:12:19):
. I love that

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:12:21):
I study both dogs and humans at the same time. And like how does the interaction work? Yeah. So that's how I ended up to this current situation. .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:12:33):
Excellent. Do you have a dog of your own?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:12:35):
Yeah, that's a more complicated question than it sounds in principle I do, but my dog didn't adjust well we a family with kids. So at the moment the dog is spending more like relaxed retirement times with the grandparents.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:12:56):
Okay, lovely. Getting lots of attention there I'm sure.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:13:00):
Yeah. Yeah. And very nice, nice life. Nice easy life . And also I heard this, someone say that the most common dog breed in the world is the daughter's dog , the the daughter's dog. Yes.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:13:17):
That took me a second to get

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:13:19):
. I saw that.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:13:21):
I was like, is there a cultural difference in this dog breed? No, no, no. This is a universal, no,

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:13:27):
This is worldwide . Yeah. So I guess that's, that's

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:13:31):
So funny. Yeah, I know. I think if you asked my dad he would agree with that. Yeah, yeah. . Yeah. Anytime we go on a holiday, my partner and I have been together since we're in high school and we adopted a staffy Stafford shi bull terrier when we were about 17 I think living with my dad. And then it instantly became, you know, . We didn't have a place of our own. So that was I suppose a little imposing, but yep, the daughter's dog, I think he would definitely endorse this.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:14:01):
Yeah, .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:14:03):
That's very funny. Okay, so if we're thinking about people who haven't come across this kind of work before and maybe they might not be overly knowledgeable about neuroscience or cognition, could you talk a little bit about what it means to study both ends of the leash? So that kind of elevator picture of broadly what is it that you are trying to work out and why?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:14:29):
Hmm. Okay, I'll try. Well, in studying a human dog relationship or the dog owner relationship, you have like two minds basically in all communication you have two minds that are trying to communicate with one another. But with a human dog relationship you have one mind that is the human and the other mind that is not human. So in principle, while the situation communication or interaction is similar, you have two very different minds that are engaged in this interaction. So we do share many features with dogs. Our minds are similar in, in many ways. For example, like emotions are I think one thing that keeps the world spinning around. If we have no emotions then everything would just stop because there are our motivating factors to do anything. We have the ancient emotion base, similar humans and dogs And dogs are already, they are adjusted to the living with humans. So they're actually already a little bit different from wolves even if they're considered like the same species. Some of like for example, muscles have developed for better communication with humans and already the dog digestion system has been evolved a little bit. They can use carbohydrates better for nutrition than wolves.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:16:04):
Interesting.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:16:05):
Yes. Human type of food, they can digest better. So in some ways dogs are already, or they have already been evolved a little bit for living with humans. Hmm. But still we humans, we have our own specifics. How we look at the world and what we think about others and dogs are a little bit different on that perspective. They are still coming from evolutionary different branch than humans. So their view of the world is still a little bit different. Even if humans sometimes tend to over interpret dogs and the dogs have like a perspective of their own, this is what it means to like study human dog interaction that you have to take into account both perspectives a little bit, not only the human part. Mm-Hmm

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:16:57):
That's really interesting because for a while I was lecturing in universities and we would in bio-psychology and development, we would talk about those universal emotions that humans have and how they're expressed. And I remember, you know, thinking about that kind of issue of sometimes the physiological changes that come along with emotions for two very different emotions. We could have this similar change, right? Like elevated heart rate or certain facial expressions and humans have this really unique quality of personifying other things. So I guess what I'm saying is like I'm imagining that your work, the work that you do is kind of, I don't know if made more complex or is interesting because humans will project onto dogs the emotions or the thoughts that they have or have assumptions or attributions about dogs that are actually quite human. Mm-Hmm.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:17:53):
Yeah. And I think the most difficult part is that I think there's this shared part that part of our systems react really similarly in like certain emotional situations. But then there's the cognitive side, the way we interpret things that is very different. So some things are shared with humans and dogs, but then there are other things that are different and drawing the line like where does it go? Like what are the similar and what are the different parts That is really difficult for humans because we are sort of as you said, protecting to the environment and attributing things like, I mean there's panta and these sort of things. Mm-Hmm. people are easily interpreting even like behavior of computers that the computer hates me. That's the very easily. Yes. Activated. Like this way we think of agency like why is the computer being nasty at me?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:18:58):
You know, why doesn't it work? This type of thinking. Yeah. So we also project that to animals and yeah part of that can be true like there can be this correct way of interpreting things, but the less knowledge we have of for example surgeon, animal species behavior, the more prone we are to making errors to making big leaves. And you can actually see that in many of these reels or YouTube videos or whatever animal behavior content you find on social media for example, that sometimes the videos sort of funny videos that people post there are not that funny at all if you understand what is going on. Yeah. Like the animals are trying to get rid of something that is bothering them or something like this that if you look at it and interpret it as like a anthropomorphic way, then it might look funny to you. But if you understand like what the animal might be experiencing going through, you realize that it's not really funny. Mm. So there are these differences.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:20:09):
Yeah, I can think of really strong experiences I've had like that I'm not a dog expert but I lived with one specific dog for 16 years and now have another dog. And because of that, you know, you start to pick up on things that sometimes other people don't and you watch videos sometimes it's like, oh no, this dog's really stressed out. Like yeah as you say, it's not a funny thing or that this isn't a game for them. Like they can't get out of this situation and it's yeah. Yeah. It's cringey. Mm

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:20:40):
Mm Yeah there are these differences between people that some people are better at seeing these sort of subtle cues given by animals and some just don't seem to be able to see it.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:20:54):
Sure. Yeah. Alright, so you've covered a range of different topics in this area and we don't have time to really go into depth about all the things you've done. You know, like the eye tracking and what dogs focus on compared to what humans focus on. And I was having a read this morning on you know, seeing that you're doing some stuff on heart rate and various things. But today we were gonna focus on cultural differences with keeping dogs and that relationship between owner dog and how that's impacted by the owner's temperament but also you know, factors associated with the dog. So I'm doing that broadest fruit because I know people will listen and think how fascinating and look up that other work. And I'll link to it in the show notes as well for practical purposes. And because Mia Maria needs to be able to have the rest of her day, I can't keep her here and record all day, we're gonna zoom in on these things in particular. Could we start maybe with that cultural aspect of the differences of keeping dogs and your thoughts and knowledge in that space?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:21:56):
Yeah, we obviously have like very different ways of keeping a dog in different countries. That is something that we don't really think about always in the research. But for example, our like dog population in different countries also differs. For example, in Finland we have quite strict rules like laws that you have to keep your dog in leash at all times during the nesting season of birds, for example, in towns and cities always you have to keep your dog in a leash. And I know that that's not the case in all the countries. Like in Greece, dogs can roam around quite freely. And also in some other southern European countries, if you have like control of your dog, like the dog a obey you easily, then you don't necessarily need, need a leash. And then again, in some countries some kind of dogs have to wear like the muzzle all time.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:22:58):
So there are different rules and laws in different countries and that affects the dog keeping and it may affect the human dog relationship also how it builds. And also in the dog population there are differences. 'cause In Finland and northern European countries, the Kennel club is giving advice on how to breed dogs. And the cross-breeding is not really advised. So for example, the finished dog population consists of purebred dogs mostly. And in Finland you can't buy a dog from a pet shop. If you want to have a dog, then you have to contact a dog breeder and then communicate. You want to buy a dog and the breeder doesn't necessarily sell the dog to you. The breeders, they have their own standards often that they know the type of dogs they have. And if you are trying to buy a Siberian Husky, for example, to keep indoors in a pla in a condo somewhere where it doesn't have like many possibilities for exercise, the breeders don't necessarily want to sell that breed of a dog to you because they might not have the good environment what they need. Hmm. So we don't have like also many rescue shelters for dogs because getting a dog is maybe considered quite a long time before getting a dog. Mm. So they're not relinquished. You

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:24:35):
Can't impulse by walk into a shop or a rescue and just

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:24:40):
Yes.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:24:40):
Like lots of people did in Australia during covid. Just like, okay, I'm getting a dog straight away. Yeah. And lots of these dogs ended up it not being a good fit. It was impulse and then you know, ending up back in rescue.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:24:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So perhaps for that reason, it's impossible in Finland to do that. You can't buy a dog on an impulse just right like that. Of course. Well there are these, some people have problems, they might try to sell their dog online, but it's not like very systematic thing. Right. I would say there's a less of this people buying dog on an impulse. But I know that many countries, like in UK and US, they have these sort of pet shops where you can buy puppies and also these rescue shelters. But this means that for example, the dog population that we have in Finland is quite different from some countries where the breeds are not so strong that there are more crossbred Yeah. Dogs. This affects even studying human dog relationships. Like for example, there was this Italian study where they found that there's a association between if people own a pure bred dog and their attachment to the dog so that people who own pure bred dogs had lower attachment with their dogs than people who owned like mixed bred dogs.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:26:08):
That hasn't been replicated in Finland. But I don't think we would find similar results just because like most of the dogs in Finland are purebred and I guess that they have been like considered for quite a long time before getting a dog. So they are mostly beloved family members. Whereas I think maybe in, yes, in Italy this reflects that if there's more mixed breed dogs, maybe then the pure breed dog means like some sort of status symbol that the dog has been taken as I have this very fancy breed dog look how much money I have. This sort of thing. So yes, that I think translates as like having lower attachment to your dog. But that's a sort of thing, it shows the cultural aspects of the dog owner relationship that like it doesn't fit wherever. Yes. The situation is different.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:27:05):
Absolutely. And that idea of, I'm not speaking for all people in Melbourne or people in Australia, but that idea of, you know, having a pure bred dog or going to a breeder being a status symbol makes me think that resonates for me of my experience of dog owners in Australia or perceptions of dog owning. 'cause The flip side of that is like my husband and I go to a rescue to adopt a dog like we did six months ago. We don't know what's happened for her in the first however many years of her life. And so I wonder about the emotional closeness there of you know, that you're bringing home a doggo that's probably had a hard time. You know, she was quite afraid of men so we had to go very slow with her. I wonder about that too. You know, bringing in rescue dogs, that emotional connection as opposed to not all dogs are low maintenance, but rescue dog, you know, it's not like you get a dog from a breeder and it's like, oh this is easy job or anything hence your research because it's two different species and instinctual behavior and learned behavior and all these things.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:28:03):
But I guess adopting to give a home to a dog that might have had a hard life maybe being associated with that emotional closeness.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:28:10):
Hmm. Yeah. We can't really do this sort of rescue shelter research in Finland at all. Mm. We don't really have that like that. At least there are some shelters but they are quite small. It's not like a very big thing.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:28:26):
I'm going off track just a little bit here, but do you know if this is a similar situation in the Netherlands? Because Tim and I are in the Netherlands a few months back, what stood out to me was these really distinct looking dogs. Sometimes in Australia you walk around and different shapes and sizes, but it's like the general blend with a wine. It's like mix of dogs that they have similar features. But when I was in the Netherlands I noticed like really distinct features of dogs and differences between breeds that I hadn't noticed here. I'm now wondering if there's a similar, not having as much cross-breeding.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:29:02):
It might be, I have to confess that I don't know the situation in the Netherlands that much, but it might have to do with the same thing that

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:29:13):
Interesting. Yeah.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:29:14):
We have more like control over the breeds. Yeah. And I don't know the Netherlands if they have the pet shops or not. Hmm.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:29:22):
It would be very unreasonable for me to expect you to know all the different countries what their rules are. It's just like, hmm. Personal pondering . So what about if we switch now to thinking about human owners of dogs and their personalities, how that impacts the relationship with their dog? What do we know with that from your work?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:29:41):
Yeah, well before that I'm gonna talk a little bit about, still about the cultural thing because it ties together with the personality. So in our research we have used the Monash dog owner relationship scale, which has been developed in Melbourne in was university . Yeah. We translated that to Finnish and got responses, questionnaire responses from the Finnish dog owners. And we found that there are three different like factors characterizing the dog owner relationship in that scale. And we found that two of them fitted very well, were very reliable in our finished sample. But one of them, it just didn't fit into the way that the finished dog owners interact with their dogs. So for that part that was like the shared activities with the dogs, what you do with your dog, how often do you take your dog for a car ride and how often do you buy your pet presents or give them treats That factor just didn't fit to the Finn dog owner population.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:30:51):
So we can compare these other two, which were the emotional closeness, meaning how strong emotional bond you feel that you have with your dog and the personal costs or perceived costs of the dog ownership. Meaning that how much you feel that your dog restricts your lives. Like for example, you would like to go out with your friends, but you know you have to take the dog for a walk or your dog has separation anxiety or something like that. How much you feel that this costs of the dog ownership. So those two fit did very well. Also, like they were similar between the Australian and the Finnish dog owner populations. Those we could compare, but they shared activities with the dogs because it didn't fit into the Finnish world of keeping dogs. We couldn't compare that that much. I thought about it that maybe the way the countries are built and the ways the dogs are kept and like the culture of keeping a dog is a little bit different between our countries.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:31:59):
So in Finland, maybe the shared activities you do with your dog are not necessarily taking the dog for car rides or buying them treats or presents, but more like going for a walk at the woods sort of things. And we have a lot of dog related hobbies like for example, agility or obediance training dog clubs. They are very popular. So the ways are just different. But for these factors that did fit into the human dog owner population, the emotional closeness and the perceived costs of the ownership for those, we could find some like predictive personality factors or temperament factors from the owners. So for example, the dog owners who are very neurotic, they have very high like negative affectivity, meaning that they're easily frightened, they tend to worry about things, what might go wrong, they might easily feel things threatening, this type of reaction. So often they had the higher perceived costs of the dog ownership. So they felt like the dog is threatening my life. But they also had very high emotional closeness with the dog. So this has been also studied in some other studies, they form strong bonds or tend to form strong bonds with the dog, like strong emotional attachment to the dog. And that is perhaps because the dog can give like this sort of safety and this sort of emotional support that you need.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:33:39):
Tap into those kind of attachment systems for soothing and stuff.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:33:43):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So those things go together, but as like a balancing factor, if a person has like high self-control, meaning that high effortful self-control, meaning that you are able to restrict your reactions or like your behavior based on your reactions. This personality factor sort of acted as a balancing factor because people with high self-control, they had a lower emotional closeness with the dog and they also had lower perceived costs. So it sort of had like a opposite effects to the negative effectivity. Interesting. Meaning that if you have both, like if you have like a high this neuro or negative effectivity and high self-control, these two balance each other out a little bit . Okay. Yeah. Also this tendency to notice more details in the environment, which we scientists often have , that also increased the emotional closeness with the dogs. So I think this is perhaps because if you have this ability to notice more details in the environment, maybe you can also better pick up the subtle cues from the dogs and maybe it can create more understanding of the animal behavior if you have this ability to notice the small subtle differences.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:35:20):
So in that sense, it can help you build like stronger bond with the dog if you understand better. Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:35:27):
They feel like you get them feel safe when they need to feel safe and you know when to back off or to go to them. That's interesting.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:35:36):
Hmm. Yeah. And also this what we had in our study, this adult temperament questionnaire, it has four factors and the last factor is the extroverts. So the more extroverted persons, they felt like lower negative sides of owning a dog, which is very typical. So they perceive less costs of the dog ownership. Hmm. Those things like how these different factors of personality or temperament, these two, they correlate quite heavily. So you can talk a little bit of either of them. I think they are quite global in a way that even if you can find some differences in different countries, like for example the behavior of, or certain type of people can be different still these personality types are found in different countries. Mm-Hmm. This sort of human doc relationship I think perhaps is like similar like universal, like similar in different countries, not depending on the culture. Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:36:48):
This might seem extreme, so bear with me. Mm-Hmm. ,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:36:53):
I'm thinking about the applied aspects of this of, maybe it's not around screening of dog owners, but around like just education for people of whether or not they're suited to have a dog or if they do own a dog, the expectation of like, well you might be rated a little bit higher on this, you know, emotional reactivity or negative affect and that means you likely will build a strong bond with your dog. But also it's gonna feel tough sometimes. You know, like there will be restricted aspects to that. I'm not sure of your thoughts of, you know, who should know this information that maybe doesn't know it yet, you know, how would you like to see this stuff applied?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:37:32):
Hmm.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:37:33):
It's a big question.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:37:34):
Yeah. Who should know? Well at least everybody who want to have a dog should realize that there are these positive sides, but there are also these negative sides to owning a dog. Yeah. Like we see that in these studies about the rescue shelters that even if you wanted to own a dog, even if you wanted to have a pet, you might relinquish the dog to a shelter if you have certain type of problems. Like many kinds of problems with dogs I think are more often related to separation anxiety of dogs like mm-Hmm. Being apart from the owner or some fearfulness related problems or then aggression related problems. Mm-Hmm. They might cause you to relinquish the dog to a shelter. So I think in the media, the dog owning, at least during Covid and after Covid has been like presented as that there are many health benefits and there are many benefits of owning a dog.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:38:42):
But what I would like everybody considering having a dog to know in advance that this is only one side of the coin that you can't, you know, have all the good sides and none of the bad sides that owning a dog is like having another family member. Yeah. You know, if you think about any of your family members, you can't only have the good sides and not the fights and , you know, more negative sides clashes of personalities or whatever. Yes. So also with the dog, that's the same thing that you can't only pick the blueberries outta the cake . So

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:39:21):
That is a beautiful message. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, I think humans can, I have conversations with other people about their dogs and they might say things like, oh, they're naughty, they do this. I'm always like, because of the psychology background, I'm thinking from a systems perspective. And I'm like, I reckon that probably this is a dynamic situation here. There's stuff you're doing contributing to this also. I just don't like hearing that dogs are naughty.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:39:47):
Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:39:49):
They live in a human world. So ,

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:39:51):
I think that actually goes together with what we discussed in the beginning about how people think about other people and how people attribute things to computers or animals. Hmm. As humans we often think about like other minds, other people and their intentions, like why are they, you know, being mean to me or why are they being grumpy? Mm. They want to be difficult, this type of agency attribution. Mm. So we do the same with dogs except that dogs don't have exactly similar thoughts towards other minds, like towards humans. Mm-Hmm. Than other people. Like for example, children can Mm-Hmm. So I think dogs can't be really naughty on purpose, that there's always something else behind it. Especially animal pain is really one of the things that causes what humans interpret as misbehavior. One of the biggest causes is actually pain that the animal is experiencing discomfort or pain somewhere.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:41:02):
And that is why the animal is protesting towards something that increases the discomfort. Hmm. So this is one major thing that we are misinterpreting. And also like naughtiness, I use brackets here. Yeah. Naughtiness of dogs. For example, if the dog is destroying the sofa or digging the garbage or something like this, and then you call it naughty. The real reason behind it might be the separation anxiety dog has a high level of anxiety or a high need of exercise and it just has to direct it somewhere. So if you like give three hour walks with your dogs, they are less likely to be naughty in a way. Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:41:53):
Imagine how you would feel at the end of a really stressful work week when you couldn't soothe through whatever you like to soothe through, like watching Netflix or having a drink with friends or yoga or exercise or something. If you couldn't do that thing that makes you feel calm, you know, the, like you say, the doggo has to put their energy and their anxiety into something. It's very interesting.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:42:17):
Mm. Yeah, exactly. I think that, yeah, you would get irritated if you were prohibited in .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:42:24):
Oh, I'd be ripping the couch up. Yep. . Yeah. Chewing someone's shoes. .

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:42:32):
Exactly. Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:42:34):
I wonder before we dive into specifics about the dog behavior and dog owner relationship stuff, could you talk just a little bit about how you measure or research dog behavior, the tasks, the battery of tasks that dogs do? It was really interesting. Mm. And I think it's always handy. The purpose of the podcast is to share those high level learnings, but I think also people are quite interested in how do you even measure dog behavior? How do you use the behavior aspects of a test with a dog to understand what their connection with the human or humans in general are.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:43:10):
Hmm. This like dog cognition. Well it's tied to the dog behavior. So the dog behavior testing is actually quite established, well established by now. I think it started at the nineties. After that people started using this sort of behavioral testing to see how dogs, for example, understand human gestures. Humans pointing one out of two locations as a signal for the dog, where to find the treat. Then it's, we can measure like how often or how long does it take or how often the dog chooses the right location based on the human given cues. So the human pointing gestures, and this can be studied, it's not really my line of research, but science builds on what other people have already discovered. So these pointing gestures, they can be given in many different ways. Like pointing by your hand, pointing by your foot, pointing by your gaze. Only dogs do the gaze following. Hmm. So if the owner is looking at something, the dogs can track that and look at the same thing. And dogs also do the gaze pointing in a way that they initiate this shared gaze. Yeah. Many dog owners know that when the dog wants to tell you that the ball went behind the sofa, they look at you and they look at the sofa and they look at you . It's like very clear seeing now .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:44:49):
Yeah. But you have to build that, right? Like people who haven't had dogs before will often be like, oh, dogs can just walk on leash. Dogs make eye contact. And it's like, no, you have to build that up with the dog. They have to realize that you are someone who's gonna respond to them and learn. You know, that you are giving cues to them with your gestures, like you say, and that you are responsive to them when they do that gaze pointing.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:45:13):
Yeah, exactly. Yes. And of course it doesn't apply to everybody, so, well it differs according to what kind of relationship you build with your dog. So how much do you react to the dog or how much do you sort of listen or see what the dog wants to express? Yeah, the dogs do have their own minds and they have their own things they want to do, but you have to sort of pay attention. Oh, well these days there are these talking buttons too. But I think there are more things that you can read directly from the dog if you are just looking at the right things.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:45:54):
Mm-Hmm. Interesting. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. One of the tasks that you described in the paper was the impossible task. Mm-Hmm. And it made me think of, you know, the strange situation with attachment of, you know, similarity with caregivers and toddlers of the dog wants access to a treat or a toy. It's impossible to get access to and measuring how much it'll look to a human for help. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I think they are not to reduce the importance of the complexity of developing the methods behind getting to these points, but it's a really powerful simple demonstration of does the dog expect to get support from a human? Because it's not gonna look if in the past it hasn't had that or they don't have that kind of relationship. And that's pretty ingenious. I really enjoyed, I enjoyed thinking about that experiment. Yeah,

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:46:45):
Yeah, yeah. But different breeds of dogs also come into play here because they have different genetic makeup. What kind of features have been selected to this certain type of breed? So breeds appear to differ in their performance in this, for example, the impossible task where first the dog is sort of shown that the treat goes into this box and then the dog can retrieve the treat from the box. And after the dog has learned you can get the treat from the box, then the lid is tied so that it's impossible to get the treat anymore. And after that, for example, you, you measure the time, like certain amount of time when the dog is trying to retrieve the, the treat from the box and the time, like how long the dog spends just trying to independently retrieve the treat. And how long does the dog like rely on the humans like gaze at their own owners or instructors or alternate the gaze between the treat and the owner. Like there's the treat over there, but could you like lend me hand ? I can't get it.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:47:58):
Yeah. I'm a lap dog that is not used to getting things for myself. You do it .

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:48:04):
Yeah, that also. Yeah. But also that there are breed differences that some dog breeds are just more independent, that they keep trying towards the end of the world and they are not asking for help. I could think of also people that are like this . Yeah. And other breeds are more prone to this asking for help. These are the more cooperative breeds that have in their like genetic makeup already there are selections that they tend to communicate with humans.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:48:42):
Ah, interesting. That's good to know too because you are showing that if you're a dog owner who has had a different kind of breed in the past and you expect that oh, to have a good relationship or for the dog to be okay, you know, that they'll check in with me. But the dog could be fine and have, you know, find enough perception of you but just be more independent. That's really interesting.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:49:05):
Hmm. And of course this applies, we did this in feeling, so we had like very many pure breed dogs. Whereas if you have mixed breed dogs, then of course you don't really know what is behind there, what is in the genetic mixture. So what kind of tendencies the dogs have. So there can be many unexpected differences between different mixed breed dogs. They behave very differently.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:49:32):
Yeah. Kind of makes that comparison to other countries hard. Yeah. Mm.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:49:36):
Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:49:37):
Interesting.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:49:38):
Yeah. And yeah, there are differences between the breeds on how they perform these tasks. For example, in this pointing task, the shepherd dogs, the herding dogs like border colleagues and Australian shepherds, they are really good at this. They really excel because like they have this genetic background that they are bred for communication and cooperation with humans. Mm-Hmm. They are able to realize and pay attention to very subtle cues by humans. Mm-Hmm. We are some like more ancient, independent type of dogs. Like we have in Finland for example, Finnish beach or many independent hunting dogs are this type, they don't have similar continuing cooperation. Mm-Hmm. . So they tend to be more independent and try to accomplish the task and they are not expecting help or looking for help from humans. And in different universities they have done comparisons between wolves and dogs. So the wolves are like more independent. They don't ask for help from humans as much as dogs do. Even if they have been bred in similar situations like within a pack or within human families, they still

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:51:04):
Interesting.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:51:04):
Yeah. They don't ask for help if they're wolves.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:51:08):
Right. Showing that more genetic instinctual tendencies rather than, you know, being stronger than learnt or the nurture stuff. Yeah. Interesting. You get to do pretty cool work. , this is an awesome area of research.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:51:24):
Yeah, of course. This is not all my work. This is like a, a summary of the work done everywhere in the field. Yeah,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:51:31):
Yeah, yeah. For sure. And I appreciate you bringing those broader learnings in to contextualize these things and share broader insights as I'm using and asking you random questions with the dog behavior aspects and breed or dog behavior and human personality. Was there anything else we should touch on before we finish up?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:51:54):
Yeah, so one of the things that I guess collectively in the field we have only begun to understand a little bit is how the different human personalities affect dogs and dog behavior. And that it can be different between different dog breeds or different dog types. So in this study of ours, we noticed that these shepherd dogs who are like really good at this human pointing, following human pointing gestures, like understanding human gestural cues, they performed a little bit worse if they had an owner with high negative effectivity, like high neuroticism. And this didn't apply to the sort of more ancient dog breeds. They didn't show any sensitivity for human their owner personalities. Mm-Hmm. . So I guess that this might mean that the shepherd dogs who are normally like really good at understanding human gestures, maybe they absorb a little bit of their owner's attitude or fear towards the world, the worries toward the world.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:53:09):
And this might make the dogs a little bit more careful, a little bit more insecure about, am I reading this correctly? Could it be wrong sort of attitude? And this is what we might see. And in some other studies also, like even though this type of human dog relationship can be rewarding for the person who finds emotional support and comfort from the dog, but also for the dog, that dog can also perhaps lead on the owner, but it can also create some problems if it's like a really very tight emotional connection. Because then for example, if the dog still has to stay indoors for eight hours through the day when the owner goes away, then the dog is sort of missing this tight relationship and then has higher tendency for separation anxiety. Which means that then you might have these sort of problems that the dog has high level of anxiety, it needs to get it out somewhere. So that's how you might end up with destroyed sofas. Mm-Hmm. So there are like these, you know, sort of good sides and bad sides and you know, you have to sort of try your way across from the medium.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:54:30):
Yeah. Yeah. That's really fascinating. I feel like it's the emerging science behind something I was exposed to a couple of weeks ago, I went to a dog obedience school rally where they various dyads of owner doggos were doing, you know, competition in obedience and you'd see these Australian shepherds and other dogs like that where they wouldn't perform as well on the day. And as they were leaving, the owner would be saying something to the judge like, oh, they're usually a lot better than this. And the judges would often say stuff like, they're probably picking up on your nerves. Like your cues were probably a bit different to how they usually are. And

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:55:09):
Yeah, I agree with that. You

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:55:11):
Do? Yeah. Interesting. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Very interesting. How funny that two sentient beings would react to each other's emotions. Hmm.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:55:20):
,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:55:22):
It makes sense. We've gotta be more conscious of this. Yeah.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:55:26):
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. But I have to say that not people are usually interested in our work. There are two types of comments that are very common. Like after we publish whatever results we have, one of the comments is, yeah, we knew this already. You know, why did you have to do the research for this? That no, everybody knows this happens. And the other type is, well my dog doesn't do that , this doesn't like apply to us at all.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:55:57):
. Okay.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:55:58):
These are very common because of course we build ideas universally that sometimes even in science, things happen at the same time in different places of the world. So we build on some knowledge that is shared and try to figure out the result, like research build on that. But then of course some of the ideas are like people are thinking themselves and they are picking maybe some things about their own relationships with their own dogs. So Mm-Hmm. then it might be like, yeah, I knew this. Yes, I've seen this happening. But at the same time it never applies to everybody.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:56:40):
Absolutely. Yeah.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:56:40):
We are looking at the averages. So there's always someone who says, that never has happened and my dog is completely different. And yes, they both, they have like a valid points ,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:56:53):
But this is science. If we're going to research and develop systematic understanding of relationships and behavior, yeah. There's gonna be parts of that that make sense to non researchers or even researchers ourselves of like, look, intuitively, I sensed that all my experience suggested that, but until you are systematically collecting data and controlling various variables and taking out all those things we've talked about today of the attributions that people always make Mm-Hmm. They might be able to predict what their dog's going to do, but they might not necessarily realize all the factors that are going into contributing to that behavior. So Exactly.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:57:33):
This

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:57:34):
Happens with psychology, right? People going, oh that's common. Yeah, yeah. This is common sense. Or we knew this, it was like, well we knew it anecdotally, or maybe you did anecdotally, but now we can be more confident to say these are the things actually at play. And more importantly, your research and other research shows what we still don't know and why that's important. Yeah,

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:57:55):
Yeah. Exactly.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:57:56):
I think we face this in psychology broadly

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:57:59):
. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, whatever your opinion is, you always feel strongly about it, so it feels right.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:58:09):
Oh, experience is powerful. Yeah,

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:58:12):
Exactly. Sometime during the history people were very confident the earth is flat. Yes. Because you know, you can just see it .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:58:22):
Yes.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:58:23):
Yeah. You could be right or you could be wrong. It depends .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:58:27):
And I think too, I mean people who are really experienced with dogs and maybe doing obedience training or whatever else, sometimes humans forget the specialized experience and knowledge they have and that not everybody has that. So these learnings are actually, maybe they're not for you. Maybe you are a bit of an outlier in the knowledge and experience that you have, but more broadly there are people that benefit from knowing the science behind this. So.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:58:53):
Hmm, that's true.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:58:54):
Interesting. One of the questions that I, I often ask is, what is the common reaction that you get from people when you talk about your research? So I appreciate you sharing that , . So what's next for you? The things you've outlined are really fascinating. What motivates you or drives you to explore next?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (00:59:11):
Well I have always many things in mind simultaneously. So at the moment I am trying to figure out like how does it work? How does the interaction between humans and dogs work? What are the like underlying mechanisms? Hmm. So for this, we are measuring the physiological reactions of humans and dogs while they are engaged in interaction. So this is something that we are doing next. And then trying to figure out what are the background variables that affect the interaction and perhaps the physiological reactions of humans and dogs. Mm-Hmm. This is something immediate. Immediate meaning like maybe the next two years research. But also after that I would like to go towards like longitudinal studies because at the moment we don't know if the connections between like certain human personality types and certain dog behavior if they are, because certain types of people tend to choose certain types of dogs if it's because of that or if it develops over a long period of time. So if you're only doing these sort of snapshot studies that you get the people and dogs to participate once, you can only say that there is a connection but you don't know what is driving that connection and which direction does it go to. So I would like to do more longitudinal studies.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:00:47):
Cool. I look forward to continuing to keep in touch, but doing some stalking of you online and seeing it as various studies come out. Stalkings not a friendly word, perusing of your research and if other people listening wanna kind of be able to keep up to date with what you and your lab is doing, what's the best way for them to do that?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (01:01:08):
Mm, I guess we don't have that good websites at the moment, but all of our publications we tend to publish like open access so that anyone anywhere can access them.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:01:21):
Wow. Thank you. You welcome. That's actually a big deal and highly valued. Yeah.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (01:01:26):
Yeah. And I guess from the University of Vascular, from my university's website, we have the site for the research group that I now try to improve in the next future . But that might be the best way to follow what we are doing and and what are the current research saying.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:01:47):
Yeah. Lovely. And because the audience is a mix of people just generally interested in psychology, but other psychology researchers as well and psych students, I think it's nice for people to get a sense of, I always like the idea of thinking about the stuff that I was exposed to while I was studying or developing my professional interests. And you don't know who's listening who might reach out down the track and you know, wanna come to Finland or already be in Finland and wanna work with you or connect. So

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (01:02:16):
Yeah. You know, anyone who would like to fund the research in know , please speak.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:02:22):
That is well that that is not to be understated . No, absolutely. A universal for researchers. That's very funny. Yeah. Alright, well one of the ways that I like to wrap up is to get a sense of when you're not keeping yourself busy doing research and writing papers and thinking about dog and human brains, what do you do with yourself?

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (01:02:46):
I was thinking about this question that, you know, I'm a researcher. What do you mean when I'm not doing research? I don't understand. Yeah. The research never ends. It's just continue. I appreciate the healthy work life balance because actually to be able to have great ideas, you need free time. We know this scientifically now even better. Hmm. You need to be idle at sometimes. So now I do a lot of exercise. I like to, you know, go walk about in the nature . Yeah. All kinds of running, walking, rollerblading, these sort of things. And I have a family so I don't have time to think about work related things all the time.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:03:35):
Right. Yes.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (01:03:36):
I think it's good to have a break every now and then.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:03:39):
Yeah. Keep you honest with those other things,

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (01:03:42):
. Yeah, exactly. So much for life. You have to have other things than, you know, work in your mind also.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:03:49):
Totally. Yes. And as you say, that will benefit the work that you do. I think I've had a smile on my face this whole time. Thank you for being someone who so openly can share the work that you do and, and have this conversation, you know, informally and be such a, an interesting human. I really appreciate your time and catching up. Thanks so much for coming to join me today. Mm-Hmm.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (01:04:13):
, thank you so much. Yeah, this has been really nice. Can I send greetings, at the end? ? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just in case my house family from Australia is listening at any point I want to send my hugs and kisses for Walter, Debbie, and Natalie.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:04:32):
I love that . Amazing. Maybe I can share this specifically with them. I would love to do that.

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (01:04:39):
Mm.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:04:39):
Let's talk, let's see if we can reach out to them. . , that's a really wholesome way to end the episode. Thank you, .

Dr Miiamaaria Kujala (01:04:47):
You're welcome.