Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Psych Attack. I'm Dr. Jasmine B. Macdonald. Today I'm catching up with Dr. Jade McEwen to hear about her professional and personal experiences of self-care, the benefits of being unapologetically self-promoting and working out how to be heard in order to get the support you need. Welcome Jade.

Dr Jade McEwen (00:44):
Oh, thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:47):
I appreciate you making the time and I wonder if we might be able to start with some background info about you and your journey into research. Oh,

Dr Jade McEwen (00:57):
Pleasure. So my research orientates primarily around the rights of people with disabilities, human service, regulation, inclusion. My interests have always been around supporting people, you know, with disabilities or older Australians, people who are often on the margins and trying to give voice to the issues that impact them in policy and in life. And that's been 23 years in the making. I started out 23 years ago in disability services, in direct facing work and studied did I think originally some advanced diplomas in health and social care, community services management. And then I climbed a ladder, so to speak, in disability services and became a quality manager, quality and risk. And it was around that time I started to really get interested in the way that we monitor the quality and safety of the care that we provide to people with disability and indeed in, in aged care.

Dr Jade McEwen (02:03):
So I invested in, at the time a Masters of disability Studies. 'cause I really wanted to sort of understand, you know, what constitutes good service provision, you know, what's poor service provision, what sorts of things should we consider when we're evaluating it to ensure that we're providing the best care we can. And then I completed that and was still sort of, this is about, I mean, roughly, oh goodness, like 12 years ago. And I decided after completing that, you know, I was still hungry, I still, I kind of understood what good and poor quality service provision looked like, but I wanted a variety of tools to help me understand how can I actually measure that and monitor that. So I wrote to a bunch of beloved scholars, one of which was Professor Christine Big B. And to my absolute amazement, she took me under her wing and I started the PhD journey.

Dr Jade McEwen (02:56):
I think I was one of the longest standing PhD students doing it part-time working. I had two bouts of maternity leave, but I did it . So I think I started in 2012 and I graduated 2022. But you know, I focused on what constituted good measures of service quality and disability services in particular in a regulatory context. So yeah, couple years later when I started that I got into sort of policy and advocacy roles and that led me to research roles. And I've worked for the Australian Council and Academies and research role, communication Rights Australia, obviously the Australian Institute of Family Studies. And now I'm working for the NDS Quality Safeguards Commission.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (03:41):
Lovely. It's a quite a wealth of experience, practical and research. And I think that balance is really, can be quite unique and it's really powerful. When you had said maybe you were a one of the longest standing PhDs, I remember looking up the average because everyone's journey is so different and I think the Australian average, this was a couple years ago now, but it was something like eight years to do a PhD. Oh

Dr Jade McEwen (04:05):
Wow. I didn't know that.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (04:07):
Yeah. I dunno that that holds up. But yeah, the powerful, interesting and applied things that you were doing along, you know, simultaneously Yeah. Contributes to the very interesting and thoughtful person that you are, which is why I've reached out to you to have a chat today,

Dr Jade McEwen (04:24):
.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (04:26):
And yeah, so you and I worked together at the Australian Institute of Family Studies and I've always been impressed by you and the work that you've done. And when I reached out to have this conversation, the topic that you wanted to discuss was self-care and self-promotion. And why, why is that something that came to you so strongly for us to talk about today? Ah,

Dr Jade McEwen (04:49):
Well, to be honest, I'm not entirely sure. But I'd imagine that because, you know, when you think about what you can contribute to the world, the little bit that I can contribute aside from my day to day work, which I'm very passionate about and hope I do a good job, is I don't know, little things that may have influenced the outcomes that you've achieved in your little vantage point of the world. And I guess one of the things that struck me when you approached me looking back is, you know, I was never somebody that I thought could achieve a research career or could complete a PhD because my family, you know, the most beautiful creative people, but I'm the only person to have achieved education of that scale. And to have really sort of set their sights on a career path, like becoming a researcher and achieved it, fantastic jobs going on and in my family. But yes, I'm kind of the biggest nerd, I think .

Dr Jade McEwen (05:57):
But yeah, look, I guess I think it's really important that now that I'm doing all the things that I love and I'm paid to do it and I'm, you know, feeling like I am where I'm supposed to be, I think it's really important to send a message to other people who might feel the same way as I did 12 years ago or however long ago. Just thinking, you know, it just seems so big and so far out of reach, but actually you can, and here's some things to consider about getting there. And in particular, I think working parents because you know, I know what it is to juggle and you know, my oldest also has the added complexity of identifying as a girl with disability. So I guess I just really wanted to send a positive message that these things are obtainable and it's often the person that's questioning whether or not they can, who actually really is laden with talent and smarts and creativity. But so we can't, you know, let confidence be a barrier to achieving what's in our heart, our inner most desires. I hope that makes sense, .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (07:07):
It absolutely does. And what struck me when we started messaging about this was the beauty of doing a topic like this is that meta level content. Yeah. You know, people might tune into an episode about nature and psychology or you know, disability or various things, but this is something that's quite important across the board and conversations. Unfortunately, I think we don't have enough in the workplace or professionally. So that idea of being an advocate for yourself and your skills, like what you can bring to a role, what you can bring to a conversation, I think that's a really nice thing for us to be able to unpack. So indeed I've emphasized the self-promotion or the self-care, but really when you've framed it and what you've just described there is self-advocacy. So, mm-Hmm.

Dr Jade McEwen (07:52):
Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (07:53):
Clearly from that story that you've described that wasn't an entitlement of self-advocacy that you were, you know, always instilled in you, it's something that developed. So what did that look like? Well, I

Dr Jade McEwen (08:03):
Guess what it looked like is, I noticed over the years, over many years, that if I asked for something or I asked for help and support, that I would get it. And you know, jobs and things like that where you are brave enough to say, you know what? Take me on. I need your help. I'd love to work for you, whatever it might be. As you start to get yeses, you build confidence and you realize that actually often the only thing between what you want and yourself is the ability to advocate for yourself. And I say that knowing that being grateful for what I have. 'cause There is a privilege in that. Everybody has challenges and barriers that go far beyond what I've experienced in my life, but with what I've been lucky enough to have, I am very grateful for. And and through that gratitude reach out and ask. And that has built confidence and allowed me to continue to advocate for myself and others.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (09:04):
Hmm. So does it feel like it's a, an cumulative thing? You know, you, you try asking for something and then you surprised that you get it and so then you become a little more confident and keep asking and then you're like, hang on .

Dr Jade McEwen (09:18):
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (09:19):
Or is there, even with the things that you've achieved and the relationships you've built through, you know, asking for and advocating for yourself, is there still some apprehension at times? I think

Dr Jade McEwen (09:29):
Most of us anyway, like me, I was always a sort of fairly nerdy child, but I was one of the few in my family, you know, they were really great at sports, I was awkward , you know, just awful at everything that required physical attitude. You know, people who come from a place where they feel an intuitive calling towards something, but it's very unfamiliar. They have to step out of their world and be brave and try new things. It's always with you. You know, I'm always gonna be the awkward little girl wearing added jumpers reading in the library, you with my hair over my face and . But I guess one of the things that helps me is not only the fact that people have believed in me and lifted me up and given me opportunity and the wonderful life that I've now been afforded, which I'll continue to work hard to keep.

Dr Jade McEwen (10:22):
'Cause That's gratitude is lifting other people up. And I think it becomes a bit of an addiction because when you have achieved whatever it is that you desire, and for me just being paid to think and talk to wonderful people and contribute to great projects, I'm so blessed, you know what I do now and the roles I've performed make my heart sink could not be happier. But you know, we're obligated to help others then. And you feel a different kind of confidence in a happiness when you are able to do that for somebody else. And then you sort of see yourself through their eyes, you know, they're kind of like, I would've been with everybody who's hired me, you know, wide-eyed and oh wow, thank you. And you know, they tell you how they see you and then all of a sudden you think, oh wow, , that's amazing. Could I be that person? Okay, I'll take it. So I think it's those two things. You know, you kind of, with every, yes, you grow a bit, but then with every hand that you hold out and help lift others up with in any capacity afforded to you, no matter how small, you become more confident in your abilities and perceptions of yourself.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (11:32):
Right. Yeah. I personally appreciate your style because I place a lot of emphasis on relationships and I think it some professional context, there can be a little bit of resource hoarding or you know, I know what I know, but if I share this with you, then you'll have my knowledge, but I don't have your knowledge and working with you. The conversations that we would have and the time and the authenticity and the genuine like delight to see people and have conversations was lovely and I was attracted to it. If we're gonna segue and start talking about self-promotion, that's a good way to do it, right? Is to pair that with genuinely caring about other people and and lifting up other people. So ,

Dr Jade McEwen (12:11):
Yeah, a hundred percent.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (12:12):
Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about self-promotion and maybe some examples of times where that's, you know, worked quite well or what that could look like for other people thinking about how maybe they could be a bit more confident if they haven't had a work or personal culture of being able to say, Hey, this is something I'm really good at. Or like you're doing this and I would be a great part of this team.

Dr Jade McEwen (12:34):
. Yeah, it's funny isn't it? Because you never really think about what you do or who you are until someone asks you. So as you're talking, I'm thinking, what do I do? What do I look like?

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (12:45):
Yeah, you just do it.

Dr Jade McEwen (12:47):
, I will say that what you said about your past experience is interesting. I've been really lucky. Every research role that I've had, I've worked with people who are just so kind and willing to give up their time and collegial because I think, you know, it's true. Nothing really big happens in isolation and I don't see any benefits to not sharing and collaborating. I think doing, so it's an authentic relational exercise to ascertain what people know and the skills they have and for you to share yours so that when the time comes, you know, you know who to go to certain projects. But even that without meaning for it to be is a form of self-promotion, isn't it? Because as you're being collegial, you're learning about each other and I think that relational approach bolsters people's likelihood of thinking of you for future work or when things come up that might be in your wheelhouse.

Dr Jade McEwen (13:46):
I've always had the attitude that today's janitor might be tomorrow's CEO. So regardless of people's roles and status, be kind because you know, you just don't know people's hidden secrets and wonderful creative, creative magic. And also the best ideas come from all manner of sources, you know? Yeah. Sometimes that conversation at the water cooler with someone who you think is completely unrelated to the work you do ends up being this amazing gold nugget that you lean into and it forges this fantastic piece of work together. So for me, I feel a bit like David Bowie, he described himself as a collector , like he said, I'm not just a musician, I'm a collector. I collect people's stories and experiences and I draw from them in my craft. And that's what I like to do. I like to collect people's interesting ideas and perceptions and knowledge and share my own.

Dr Jade McEwen (14:41):
Because one day you rummage through the tool house of your brain and you think, oh holy cow, that's absolutely priceless. I'm so glad I talked to whomever, you know, Joe Blow in the kitchen that many moons ago. I never would've thought about this on my own. Yeah. So I think those things are interwoven, right? Like the relational lens is interwoven with self-promotion and also promoting others, which circles back to, I hope any colleague I've ever worked with will say this, that if we're at a conference or ever, I'm try to always be the first to kind of gently, metaphorically kind of push them forward and say, this is X and they're good at this and this and this and this. Because I mean it, their success means, you know, I have a much higher chance of being successful by proxy and also they're much more likely then to do the same for me.

Dr Jade McEwen (15:31):
Hmm. And I think the more you promote others, the more you feel comfortable promoting yourself, you know, it's good practice if you're not someone who's comfortable to just do it for other people to begin with. And then you might feel more confident doing it yourself. For me, I feel really lucky, like I say, to be doing what I do. It's easy to promote what you feel you can bring to the table on projects that you're deeply, deeply passionate about. Mm-Hmm. And sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes I think there's a misalignment between what people are doing. You know, that kind of lack of confidence and sort of being able to put your hand up and say, I wanna do this. Sometimes is an indicator that perhaps you are not on the right path or as passionate about this as you are. Other things, not always, but for me it was.

Dr Jade McEwen (16:17):
It's more that like I think, oh, I have to be a part of this. This is something I would, you know, it's like Christmas to me, I really need to do this. So I'm quick to go, oh, I'm a qualitative researcher and I do this, this, and this and this is my background. 'cause It's less about me and more about I really wanna do this, please, please think of me for this project. And luckily as I say, I'm so blessed, you know, AVEs now at the commission, I just love what I'm doing and I think it's because of all of those intersecting factors, but also luck too. I acknowledge that I've been very lucky and not everybody is privileged in that way, which is why we have to constantly be looking for talented people who may not have the same opportunities to reach their goals.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (17:04):
Hmm. That's a really good point. You can hear in the way that you speak about this enthusiasm and the passion that you have. And I think that like enthusiasm and passion in research is contagious. If someone walks up to you and says, just really dives into something that you have shared interest in or tells you about the nerdy thing that they're into and why you can't not be interested in that. Right. , I guess I'm wondering about that experience of self-advocacy and self-promotion. It sounds like in the context of doing really focused research, right? So doing a PhD and doing a PhD by the nature of it means doing something nobody else has done before. Drawing on the important work of other people and what's happening around you, but really trying to create something new and that can be kind of isolating. So I think this was a space you had some kind of thoughts and reflections on as well.

Dr Jade McEwen (17:58):
Yeah, look, certainly I think anyone, as you say, who has undertaken a PhD knows it's definitely not something you enter it too lightly. But I was really lucky because I was working throughout my PhD. As I say, I did it part-time and I started my family during my PhD as well, which you know, kept me pretty busy. Yeah. I was working in disability services in roles that responsible for showing the quality of the services people with disabilities received while I was studying how should we be measuring the quality of the services people disability receive. So my world was so interlinked and it meant that when I was at work, people were interested in my PhD. So I got to talk about it quite a bit. And then when I was with my colleagues at the Living with Disability Research Center, they were interested about my work, you know, and how the PhD, all the worlds intersected.

Dr Jade McEwen (18:53):
So I was lucky in that way. But again, not everybody has that sort of privilege of sort of living and breathe. I mean, it literally was my entire life and remains as such. But I guess the one thing I would say is people who embark on a PhD, it's really critical to try to befriend other people doing PhDs or in the area that you're focused on because you do need to talk and you do need to, you know, even if it's lighthearted, it doesn't have to be sort of too scholarly, but just to help you to, you know, spitball and hypothesize and help you not go completely stir crazy because it's the most magnificent thing that I've ever, you know, done apart from my beautiful children .

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (19:45):
And often, like you say, if you're a first generation person in your family to go through study and yeah. Like your friends, your friends and your family don't really know what you're doing. Yeah.

Dr Jade McEwen (19:56):
I think they still don't really know what I'm doing, but they're very supportive and that's all that counts. I sometimes wonder if I got swapped at the hospital because they're so fun and so lovely and there's lots of really deeply smart people, but just, you know, different ways. And that's the thing, like I always say to people, look, you don't have to be a rocket scientist, do a PhD. I sure do love saying, you know, talk to this and talk to that. It's a bit of fun, but you just need to be really, really dedicated and passionate and actually, you know, yeah. Because what is smart, what is intelligent, you know, it doesn't mean anything. There's so many variations of that. But yeah, I think, you know, yeah. Just to sort of help you to, while you're in that deep thought and it changes, well it did for me.

Dr Jade McEwen (20:37):
It changed so much of the way that I view the world and everything in it, it really helped me to kind of take pause and not be really sure I had like this really sure sense of self, like in terms of what's a problem and how to solve it, I think before the PhD. But then I realized the complexity of all things and how to be curious rather than judgmental and to be critical and questioning. And it's so great because now I use that nearly every day in the work I do. I'm so grateful for that lens. The gift that comes with PhD is so much more than just, you know, the end result and the knowledge that you acquire. So you need people, right? When you're going through any great metamorphosis, you need people by your side. We are pack animals, we are relational creatures, but it has to be on people's terms.

Dr Jade McEwen (21:29):
So I've got plenty of friends who identify as autistic, they don't need the same relational interactions that I do. I would love to, you know, meet up with you for coffee and talk about the world and you know, but for them it might be, you know, just on teams having back and forth chats or messenger or Gmail or whatever doing it your way. But connecting in a way that's meaningful for you is critical I think for any metamorphosis. And I guess the PhD just symbolizes one of the ways in which that can occur in one's life. Mm-Hmm.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (22:03):
While you are talking through these experiences and learnings that you've had, there's this book popping to mind and I quite like those productivity professional development books. I've got one here, it's called Never Eat Alone, I think,

Dr Jade McEwen (22:18):
Okay,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (22:19):
Look, it's a great book if you're relationship based, but there's a chapter about being a conference warrior and it's like , it's quite intense of like build your people, find chances to set up your own social events around the conference. But it's really in a positive way. Like I genuinely would suggest people check this book out, but it's pretty intense and it takes a very extroverted, like a specific style of communication and connection as well. And so I really value what you're saying around of, look, maybe it's important to appreciate the different relationship and connection needs and values that other people have and adapt accordingly to that. That yeah. You know, for someone just messaging occasionally could be that's a really good professional personal relationship and for others they need or would like more than that. So yeah, I like that of not just pushing towards always needing FaceTime. Yeah. And appreciating the individual needs of other people. That's cool. Yeah.

Dr Jade McEwen (23:16):
And I think just making it safer for people to say, you know what, I do need to be connected, but my way. So giving people a variety of options and I've noticed this is becoming better and better in workplaces. Yeah, having a event is fantastic, but having options as well for people who might not feel comfortable at an event but still want to interact is even better. So I think, you know, I'm seeing so much more of that and I'm just conscious of peers whose opinions and knowledge I value beyond measure, but I wouldn't get it if I wasn't open to their way of communicating it.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (23:58):
Yeah. I think that takes a lot of confidence and calmness in yourself, Jade, because you know, the classic thing that humans do, the misattribution of, they're not reacting to my communication style the way that I like, so they mustn't like me or they have some issue with me. Like

Dr Jade McEwen (24:12):
That's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. We all do it from time to time. We're all only human, you know. But I think, as I say, I've been really lucky to always have been around people with disability, working alongside people with disability. And I think they've taught me infinite amounts of wisdom that I use in my everyday life because nobody is more creative, resilient, patient, adapt, I mean the list goes on then somebody who's had to live within the confines of barriers that society has created. And yeah, I just think I'm a bit of a co constructivist with my research wherever I can be. You know, that's not always the way, but with the PhD I was, I share, they share and again, the relational lens, my gosh, the rich things people have shared with me about how they've gotten through challenge and also day to day, like you say, it could be as simple as how we interpret an email and giving yourself time to just, you know, walk away, be calm, come back, you know, oh look in the bright side it's probably this, park it and lo and behold it, it usually works out.

Dr Jade McEwen (25:21):
So yeah, there's a lot that we can learn from others, particularly people who have had challenges that are at the systemic level as well as individuals. Hmm.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (25:32):
One of the other things that stood out for me when you were talking about your perspectives and communication and research was that going from a research question and trying to find an answer to being, I'm gonna paraphrase as accepting ambiguity, like, and then being curious because the pathway for researchers is often all of this study where you have to know the answer and perform really well. And then you get to this point where, so you take all of that and you start up this project and start planning the question you're gonna answer. And the more you learn there's a some psychological or otherwise some term for it of, you know, you get to the top of that mountain and you go, oh, there's all other mountains .

Dr Jade McEwen (26:11):
Yeah, yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (26:12):
Or this, even this mountain that I'm on has different paths and angles and and peaks.

Dr Jade McEwen (26:20):
Absolutely.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (26:21):
And that's scary, but that's heck and cool

Dr Jade McEwen (26:23):
. It is cool, isn't it? Because I hope that we learn until, you know, our brains are incapable of learning. Life would be so dull without it. And, and that's why, you know, I'll only speak for myself, you know, I don't feel that I'm an expert in anything because the minute you think that you kind of, you're not open to learning. And I just wanna, the more I know, the more I realize I don't know, you know that age old expression. Yeah, it's true. Yeah,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (26:47):
For real. Anything that you wanna tell listeners about how they can keep in touch with what you're doing?

Dr Jade McEwen (26:53):
So the two best mechanisms for getting in touch with me, I'm on LinkedIn, Jade McEwen, M-C-E-W-E-M, . And yeah, my email, JADE, McKeen MCE, EWEN, at gmail.com. If I can be of service in any way with anything I've talked about. But truth be told, I think everybody has a different way of getting to Rome, you know, all path lead to Rome. And I guess my path won't be everyone else's, but try to trust in it. Try to trust in your path. I know beautiful, amazing people who have found their path in their fifties, sixties, seventies, and they've gone for it and it's taken however long and they're happy, you know, they're delighted. Don't put too much pressure on yourself and when it does, you know, do it your way and trust in your own process. That's what I would say.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (27:44):
I think there's a risk sometimes in Australian culture and sometimes western culture, if we're gonna be really broad sweeping with those two of people thinking if they're not happy with what they're doing or wanting to start on another path, it's as though they've failed. And it's like, it's kind of like a nice sign of growth that probably you've had. Same with relationships, not all relationships work out, right? So it doesn't mean there wasn't something of value that you haven't learned that isn't the foundation for something really cool that you're gonna go on and do in this next path or journey. Yeah. If we start that, you know, that's true. 20 or 50 or 70 or whatever it is. Yeah,

Dr Jade McEwen (28:19):
Absolutely. Absolutely. We're always evolving and you know, I think, like I say about the last 23 years, disability services policy, a little bit of advocacy research. And I think that's wonderful because I really do think that in my particular work, which is about trying to through research, through evidence, create good outcomes through policy and practice that practice stuff as much as one can. You know, I worked beside people in the context my work orientates towards for a really long time. I've listened to them, I've got friends in them and they continue to educate me. But that's sort of several iterations of self. But you keep the core self, you know, the core self is that nerd who's passionate about making sure that everybody, wherever possible has a good quality of life and is treated with fairness and respect and kindness. If you stick true to that, some kind of core, it doesn't matter how it manifests or you achieve it. Right. As long as you can look yourself in the mirror with pride every night. Yes. Happiness is a spectrum.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (29:31):
I love that. I love that . I think this conversation maybe embodies that idea of bringing who you are as a person into your work. More so than maybe in other episodes that I've done. So I usually finish up with like a personal wrap up, what do you do when you're not working? And I feel like you demonstrate this real authenticity in who you are, but it's not sport. I've learned that much in this conversation. That's not what you do when you get home.

Dr Jade McEwen (29:57):
I'm allergic to sport. I always say I'm allergic to sport. 'cause If you saw me, I should be, I'm not right in that regard.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (30:04):
What brings you joy?

Dr Jade McEwen (30:06):
What brings me joy? Yeah. Well I know that this is gonna sound cliche, but I meant what I said earlier. Work really does bring me joy. I really am lucky enough to absolutely love what I do. And I've often said it's nice to be paid because I do it for free. where I, you know, a at commission I'm so happy. But outside of that context, look, spending time with my family, my husband and my kids, they make me laugh. You know, I'm all in my head and they're the heart that brings the humor into my life and lights me up in a different way. Being silly, you know, whatever it is. Frisbee twister. I did Flos lava last night and I'm looking all uncomfortable 'cause I'm all in my head and I'm thinking this is just, this is not logical. You know, what's going on?

Dr Jade McEwen (30:49):
There might be six year olds laughing at me and you know, getting to these stupid things as part of the game. Like game. Pretend you're on the phone while you're on the lava mats and you have to do all these challenges and eventually, you know, you start laughing and you, you just realize what a blip you are in the ocean and you know, don't take yourself too seriously. And look, I do read a lot for pleasure. I, again, the learning, I just love learning anything I can get my hands on that's I can sort of use as put in my tool belt for my work.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (31:17):
Yeah, I saw you making a note when I mentioned the Never Eat alone book. Yeah.

Dr Jade McEwen (31:22):
Oh yes, I'll read that. . There's just something really cool about finding something new and blowing your mind and sat there going, I never would've thought that. And also stuff you can bring to the table, as I say in your work. It was interesting seeing the webinar conducted by Jessica at AFEs about developmental evaluation. 'cause That's, I'm reading a book on developmental evaluation by Michael Patton. So I'm really continue to be interested in the way that we define and measure constructs, particularly in human services or you know, research and policy. I don't think I'll ever tire of it. Mm.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (31:59):
That's really nice. I think, you know, then you're doing the right thing like you said when when you have that passion and Oh yeah. One of my favorite things that you've said in this conversation was, I was still hungry when you were talking about your training

Dr Jade McEwen (32:12):
.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (32:12):
Yeah. So like, you know, let's bookend it with that. Any recommendations you have for listeners? 'cause You enjoy reading what's good?

Dr Jade McEwen (32:20):
Let me see, what have I read lately? Well I did just complete co-author a chapter in a book for those who are in the sort of disability space. But I do think there's a lot of learnings for aged care or a researcher in that space. It's called Disability Practice Safeguarding Quality Service Delivery. We wrote it for practitioners, researchers and it's just sort of about how we can ensure quality and safety and disability services. But there's some really lovely concepts within that. Like the relational lens written by a wonderful anthropologist, how to bring it to your work and policy practice and research and evaluation and things like that. The Michael Patton development evaluation, anything by him is just fabulous. I really do need to read more fiction though. Like as I'm talking I'm like I really do need to sort of, you know, broaden my reach and maybe read something that's just silly once in a while.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (33:13):
Can I make a recommendation?

Dr Jade McEwen (33:14):
You certainly can.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (33:16):
Yeah. So I have recently, just before Christmas gotten into the series. It sounds worse than it is. It's called the Thursday Murder Club.

Dr Jade McEwen (33:24):
Oh my gosh. It's

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (33:25):
Cozy crime. I actually think you would really like it. So it focuses on four main characters and they're in their seventies and eighties and they live in a retirement village together and they solve murders like cold cases. But then Oh wow. Murders start happening around them. So there's four in the series once you start, it's a Paige Turner, but it's not seen because of doing work in trauma and violence and stuff. I don't read things where there's violence against women, sexual violence and stuff like that.

Dr Jade McEwen (33:53):
Yeah, of course

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (33:55):
This is cozy crime murders will be very vaguely like someone is shot or something like that.

Dr Jade McEwen (34:01):
Okay.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (34:02):
It's happy reading, it's fun, it's charming and I think you would really like it because it is from the perspective of these older adults. Okay. One of them was a psychiatrist, one was a nurse, one was, you don't find out until later. But basically like some kind of espionage style thing. And one was the head of a workers union. And so it's then bringing all these skills and knowledge and often taking advantage of the assumptions that younger people have of them to get access to places and things. Oh

Dr Jade McEwen (34:34):
I see.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (34:34):
That they need or want.

Dr Jade McEwen (34:36):
That sounds interesting.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (34:38):
It's really good. And you chuckle and then you'll get a couple of chapters in and you'll wanna have a little cry because it's like reflecting on life and love like in later life. And honestly if you wanna dabble in some fiction. Yeah. Richard Osmond.

Dr Jade McEwen (34:52):
Richard, that sounds fabulous. Have you seen only murderers in the building? It's on Disney. It's very similar to this storyline. It's very good. Right.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (35:01):
So when I found this book, I picked it up in my local bookstore 'cause I'd, I'd actually seen the author on TV and I picked it up and I said to the person behind the counter, have you seen only murders in the building? Because I liked that. Is this like that? And they said it's like that. Yeah.

Dr Jade McEwen (35:15):
amazing. Oh wow. Oh, I can't wait. Well done. Thank you. Yeah,

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (35:22):
Let me know if you check it out.

Dr Jade McEwen (35:23):
Oh, I definitely will. Thank you so much

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (35:26):
Jade. Thank you for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. I've really appreciated the perspective that you've shared and the real passion and positivity for the work that you do, even when we're faced with really, you know, challenging topics or situations or complex problems to solve. So thank you.

Dr Jade McEwen (35:43):
Well thank you for the opportunity. It's really strange thinking and talking about yourself, but you know, I really did enjoy a self-reflection as a gift . So thank you Jasmine. And I will be reaching out for some lovely dinners in the near future.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (35:57):
Love that. Yes, let's do it.