Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:08):
Hello and welcome to this episode of Psych Attack. I'm Dr. Jasmine B. MacDonald. Today, Dr. Erica McIntyre and I discuss environmental psychology and the connection between human and planetary wellbeing. I hope you're going well and have settled in with a warm cup of tea.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:30):
Hey there Erica. Welcome. Thanks so much for coming to have a chat with me today.

Dr Erica McIntyre (00:34):
Hi Jasmine. It's really great to be here.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:37):
So I wanna start with a very super serious question. What music are you just loving right now? Are there any bands or musicians or songs that you can't get enough of?

Dr Erica McIntyre (00:49):
Oh God, that's such a great question. Um, there's so much good stuff. Uh, I think, you know that I'm a big music fan.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (00:55):
That's what I thought. I, I know exactly where I'm gonna start with this conversation.

Dr Erica McIntyre (01:02):
Yeah, great. Um, yeah, Amyl and The Sniffers. I've ordered the new album with pretty colored vinyl and I'm waiting for that to arrive, but I just can't get enough of the single can't think of what it's called.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:13):
Ooh.

Dr Erica McIntyre (01:13):
Yes. But, um, yeah, love it. Really sort of a classic punk style. Yeah. With really good kind of rhythm and catchy tunes and great lyrics too. So yeah. Loving that at the moment.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (01:27):
Nice. Yeah, I'm definitely gonna check that out. One of the albums that I've gotten hooked on in the last couple of days is the new John Mayer album. I don't know if you've heard it, but it's very eighties soft rock and it's just a bit dreamy. It's really nice. There's like really soft guitar solos. Yeah. But I I'm a bit, um, partial to punk music as well. So, uh, looking forward to checking that out.

Dr Erica McIntyre (01:53):
Yeah. My music taste is very eclectic, so yeah. It's nice to have that contrast, you know, a nice bit of hardcore punk and then, you know, you can chill out if you want to, to something like John Mayer.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (02:05):
Exactly. All right. So before we get stuck into discussing the impact of the environment on health and wellbeing, I like to start with an introduction to Erica, what's your pathway to, uh, where you are now and what is your training and background?

Dr Erica McIntyre (02:24):
Yeah, my, um, my background's kind of eclectic and it's funny you should ask about music because my first career was, I was a graphic designer and primarily in the music industry. So that's where I started out.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (02:36):
Oh, that's awesome.

Dr Erica McIntyre (02:37):
I did that work for the better part of a decade through the nineties, into early two thousands. And it, so wasn't what I thought it was gonna be. I was working in that era where there were record stores producing a lot of, uh, what's called point of sale materials. So, you know, you've got a lot of stuff going to landfill, advertising materials, all that kind of stuff. And I just got to the point of, I was sick of being exploited, doing long hours for poor pay, reducing landfill. I wanted to do something meaningful. I was like, oh, what am I gonna do? I was really interested in politics and I thought, oh, maybe I'll do political science. And then I thought about that and I thought, oh, I don't really wanna go into politics. So, um, the other thing I was interested in was naturopathy and that came from having an experience with a naturopath because doctors at the time couldn't treat a health condition that I had.

Dr Erica McIntyre (03:31):
I had a really great GP at the time who recommended I see a naturopath. So I did, and it was a friend of mine's wife and she was fantastic and I got better. And I think I was also interested in that because of the whole idea of nature cure and natural medicines and sort of, there was a connection there to the environment that I was already interested in.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (03:54):
Mm.

Dr Erica McIntyre (03:54):
Yeah. So I just had a personal interest in the importance of the environment. You know, I was a member of Green Peace, all that kind of stuff. I was vegetarian. Then I was vegan. That interest in the environment was there. I started with naturopathy and back then it was actually a qualification, when you did it part-time that was built on individual, uh, diplomas. So I started with Western herbal medicine and a bachelor of health science, the Western herbal medicine I loved, I really loved it. I loved the philosophy around it. It made a lot more sense to me than something like homeopathy.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (04:29):
What's homeopathy?

Dr Erica McIntyre (04:30):
I'm not very good at describing the philosophy, but it's basically you are diluting like a plant or an element. If you like to the point, it's almost not detectable. I, I know I'm technically explaining this really badly, but it's essentially almost like the essence of the plant or what the element or whatever it is that is having the medicinal effect.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (04:55):
Okay.

Dr Erica McIntyre (04:56):
I just didn't relate to it, but I have had really great experiences with it when I've seen really good homeopathic practitioners. So my scientific brain just collapses when I think about the idea of it. So it wasn't for me. Um, yeah. So, because that was part of what I had to do for naturopathy at the time, I was like, yeah, no, I'm gonna finish with her medicine and I'm gonna continue with, uh, nutrition separately. So when I actually ended up practicing as a herbalist, I ended up seeing a lot of people with mental health problems. It's just what came through the door. I realized I was woefully underprepared. So we just did not do enough mental health or virtually any in my training as, as a herbalist.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (05:42):
Mm.

Dr Erica McIntyre (05:43):
And the other thing I, I thought too was what I really loved about what I was doing was the counseling side of it. You know, I was doing a lot of behavior change work, um, you know, getting people to eat better and walk and, you know, just exercise more, whatever it might be.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (05:57):
Right.

Dr Erica McIntyre (05:58):
Yeah. So that sort of led me to think, well, well, what can I do with mental health that's gonna up-skill me. And I thought, ah, you know, psychology. So that's sort of where I ended up with a psychology degree.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (06:10):
Awesome. That pathway from, you know, your other disciplinary training in your interest in nature and the environment into psychology is really interesting. And then you went on from your psych degree to do a PhD as well.

Dr Erica McIntyre (06:26):
Yeah, that's right. So I should say that a part of my health science degree, I did, I did a lot of public health type subjects. So I did health promotion and I did issues in human nutrition and health in the environment. So yeah, I did some of that public health stuff in that bachelor of health science. Yeah. So in the psych degree, I, um, I did an honors degree in psychology. For my honors, I actually looked at compulsive internet use, so something completely unrelated and I loved my honors year. So I, and I loved doing the research, but my intention was I was going to use my psych qualification to become a clinical psychologist and integrate that with herbal medicine practice. I thought that was gonna be the perfect way to help people with mental health problems.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (07:15):
Sure.

Dr Erica McIntyre (07:16):
That didn't happen. [laughs] Um, yeah. So I applied for clinical masters and didn't get in and got told to do a PhD first, which I thought was quite outrageous.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (07:28):
Whoa. That doesn't sound like great advice.

Dr Erica McIntyre (07:31):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was because I wasn't competitive. It was a highly competitive program at the time.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (07:38):
Mm.

Dr Erica McIntyre (07:38):
And there were a lot of, you know, really experienced clinicians that I was competing with to get into the masters. So I didn't have any of that, you know, clinical psychology background.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (07:47):
Right.

Dr Erica McIntyre (07:47):
So, yeah. And then the PhD thing happened and I loved it, I loved research. I loved everything about it and I really wanted to make a difference. And I felt like by doing research, I could make a bigger difference to more people than I could one on one in a psych consult.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (08:05):
I think that's really awesome. The loop that's happened there of what doors open and what doors close, but then finding yourself in a situation where actually you've really enjoyed research.

Dr Erica McIntyre (08:15):
Yeah. Yeah. I do. I really love it. I love the whole process. The other thing I love too, which is different from clinical practice is working as a team, like working with other people and, you know, learning from other people, supporting other people. And I really didn't like that about being in clinical practice, especially as a solo practitioner when I was a herbalist. So I was actually glad I'd made that choice not to go down that clinical path in the end.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (08:41):
I have a point that I wanna go to then. And it was a, a term that I had heard and you describe your work, um, transdisciplinary the approach, you know, in the context that you've been working within.

Dr Erica McIntyre (08:53):
So that's the idea that you're working not only across disciplines with other academics, but you're also working with the end users, whoever it is, that's going to be impacted by the research. So everybody's collaborating, all the stakeholders are collaborating in the process at some point, you know, the idea is that's how you get the best outcomes.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (09:15):
Well, it makes a lot of sense, right. To not just sit by yourself or just sit in a research team or with the same disciplinary background. And then just assume that whatever you develop is gonna be set for implementation, engaging stakeholders in different perspectives makes a lot of sense.

Dr Erica McIntyre (09:30):
Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (09:31):
I think that the assumption often is that researchers just lock themselves away in a room and they think, and they, they might write and they read, um, but they're maybe not connected with the, the systems that they're trying to influence.

Dr Erica McIntyre (09:43):
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And, um, I guess for me, I, I realized quite early on in psychology that it was more, I was more attracted to the social psychology side of things, you know, and the influence of others, you know, and it sort of intuitively came to me like it was an, or it was an understanding that I had that, you know, it's very difficult for individuals to change if the system's broken. Um, and they don't have the capacity because they're constrained by the system that they're in. And so that's sort of why I was more attracted to a public health approach where you're actually looking at health prevention and promotion rather than waiting until somebody gets to you in clinic and you've gotta, you know, help them solve a problem that they might have not have had otherwise. So that's where my research is now is looking at, okay, well, what can we do at a system, within a system to actually prevent mental ill health or even physical ill health, but also promote health so that we can be the best that we can be.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (10:49):
Mm, absolutely. Let's talk about environmental psychology. I think this is a, a tough ask, but how would you define it? You know, you meet somebody who doesn't have a psych background and maybe isn't all that interested in nature or the environment. What do you tell them to explain the broader area of psychology that you're interested in?

Dr Erica McIntyre (11:09):
Yeah, so I think environmental psychology is quite broad, so it, it's, it's a bit of a mix. It's a mix of social psych. It's also understanding how people relate to their environment. And it's also understanding the impact of, um, environments on mental health. There's a lot of different ways you can approach environmental psychology.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (11:31):
What might be nice in this episode is to look at a couple of examples of your work to get a better understanding of what you do. We could start with the predictors of worry about environmental contamination project. And, um, maybe just starting broad, how would you describe this project?

Dr Erica McIntyre (11:50):
Yeah, sure. So I was actually brought into this project as part of my postdoc, which was an unusual postdoc. So 50% of my position was on complementary, uh, medicine and integrative medicine research. And the other half was with the Institute of Sustainable Futures working on stuff like the impact of contamination. So basically healthy environments. So this project was funded by the Environmental Trust New South Wales. We actually surveyed residents, uh, across Australia. Um, it was quite a big survey looking at how they were impacted by contamination and contamination remediation management. So that's the process of the cleanup and what we know is that's often and handled pretty badly. So it's handled pretty badly in terms of communication, the way, um, the contaminators communicated to the community, the way the community is involved in the remediation practice itself. There's a lot of uncertainty about the risks around different types of contamination. And so all of those factors come into play with how people respond to that situation. And it's those psychological responses around, you know, worry and uncertainty and those kind of things that, um, we were interested in.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (13:11):
I was really interested in reading through the work and reflecting as someone who, you know, did most of my training and grew up in regional centers, that kind of urban focus. And I felt really naive, especially as someone with sociological training and being really interested in the social systems that we live to really have never put a lot of thought into all right, well, living in an urban context, what actually is around me now in Melbourne? You know, what potential contaminants are there? I honestly never really put a lot of thought into it. Yeah. I, I mean, I thought that part was interesting and I don't know, I'm thinking I'm probably not alone on that and that's concerning,

Dr Erica McIntyre (13:48):
Uh, yeah, no, you're right. You're prob... Yeah's largely invisible. And I think that's the thing. Um, it's not something you see necessarily. I mean, you can, right. So, uh, you know, you might hear descriptions of people who have water contamination and they'll describe what the water looks like, but, but sometimes, and this, this is the case for something like lead, uh, it's not something you see. And even in terms of air pollution, you don't necessarily see air pollution either. It's not something that people think about day to day. What's interesting in this area is that the wellbeing impacts and the impacts on day to day living and that kind of thing aren't as, uh, well studied as the, uh, physical impacts of the contaminant itself.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (14:33):
Right.

Dr Erica McIntyre (14:33):
The actual experience of living in a contaminated area isn't as well researched.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (14:39):
The key thing that, that comes up for me in thinking about that is the relationship between worry or mental health and physical health. You know, they are so closely related, to look at them separately is not a holistic understanding. It doesn't lead to interventions or outcomes that are useful.

Dr Erica McIntyre (14:58):
Yeah, totally. Yeah. That's right. So I find that interesting, um, in terms of environmental health, this has often been the case where, you know, there tends to be a focus on that linear relationship between contamination and the physical impact. There hasn't been that link between, okay, I'm worried about exposure to lead or whatever the contamination is. It's hard to get away from in my environment. I can't move from where I am. I can't sell my house because my property value's changed. So all, all of these other things that happen around the management of that contamination that causes stress and worry and all of that thing. And it often occurs for a very long period of time. So these things don't resolve quickly, they last years, or like months or years.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (15:46):
Right.

Dr Erica McIntyre (15:46):
You've got a potential physical problem. Then you've also got the mental health impact on top of that, which can cause a physical problem as well, if it's left for too long. And the other thing that's interesting about it is we don't really know how much of the risk perception itself is responsible for this worry. So sometimes the, the risk perception, um, doesn't align with the actual health risk as well. So a lot of the time the health risk isn't as substantial as people think it might be.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (16:20):
Mm sure. What do you think were some of the takeaway messages from that project?

Dr Erica McIntyre (16:25):
The purpose of the project was to actually inform a guideline that was gonna be used by remediation, uh, management practitioners. It was a guide for them on how to engage with residents or communities who've been impacted by contamination and in a way that reduces the mental health impacts the worry, um, and also helps communities feel more empowered to take control over, uh, the process as well, or be involved in the process because loss of control was, uh, a factor, uh, in increasing worry as well around the contamination and the remediation process itself. The key message was that what we've discovered is that people need to be communicated with early and they need to be communicated with in a way that presents the facts. They need to have access to services that they trust. So trust is really important because often what happens is an element of distrust is created by the way, things are being miscommunicated or mismanaged.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (17:36):
Yeah. The potential health and mental health concerns that come along with that in other domains, those ripple effects is really concerning when the original issue itself is already quite serious and important. Interesting if you consider that these are aspects that are all at that macro level, where people working in psychology in terms of research and practice, whether or not they acknowledge it, these, um, issues of contamination or climate change, and, you know, one of the other aspects of your work, which is urban design, all of these aspects are influencing the work that psychologists are doing with people one on one, whether or not they realize it and directly acknowledge it.

Dr Erica McIntyre (18:17):
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm still really interested in that aspect. I guess my research generally looks at health and wellbeing outcomes in, in a broader sense. And I'm still sort of, I'm still interested in some of those clinical mental health outcomes.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (18:32):
One little tidbit that feels like I'm just throwing this in, but I think it was just around insights I was having while I was reading your work. Not because I have a specific question about it, but was thinking about more than two thirds of the world's population are predicted to be living in an, in urban environments by 2050.

Dr Erica McIntyre (18:49):
Okay. So now you're talking big. So now you're talking planetary health and I guess most of my research comes, uh, with a planetary health framework. And, um, this is also the area I teach in. So what that is is that's actually looking at the, the health of civilizations. Um, so not just human health and not individual health, uh, or population health, but health of civilizations and the natural systems on which they depend. You can look at the planet as one giant system. And within that system, are many other systems that have systems within them and systems within them, so you've got this really complex situation. When we look at, um, the health of the planet at the moment it's, it's bad. And we know that we've got the IPCC report into climate change. That's just come out. It's not looking good just from a climate change perspective.

Dr Erica McIntyre (19:48):
And then you've got all the other, uh, environmental changes that are happening as well, like pollution, like biodiversity loss, ocean acidification. So there's a whole lot of other environmental changes that are happening at the same time that are even impacted, uh, sorry, amplified by climate change. So it's a really complex problem. And that's where the systems thinking comes in to solve that problem. And the transdisciplinary work, because, you know, just psychologists or just, um, scientists, or, you know, just urban designers can't solve this problem.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (20:25):
Mmm.

Dr Erica McIntyre (20:25):
It's quite overwhelming when you look at that big picture. The way it becomes manageable is coming down to the local level and seeing what you can do at the local level. And sort of, that's why we tend to look at local urban environments with some of the work that we're doing because it's manageable and it's where you can make the impact. It's that global thinking. So we're aware of the issue and we know what the impacts are at a global level, but then coming down to that local level and going, well, there are things we can do because we just think about that big picture, it's really overwhelming and it's scary and you go, whoa, I can't do anything about that, but you come back and yeah, you can, at that local level, you can make really significant changes in your environment, in the local environment and in the systems that will help people make individual changes as well.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (21:16):
When I think about what it would be like to be a public health researcher in that context, and thinking about wanting to influence behaviors of other people, but also maintain my own motivation is when it is, is such a big and complex problem, we wanna avoid people feeling like there's nothing that they can do. Um, cuz sometimes that's a rationalization as well. Well, why should I change what I'm doing? Because it's already such a big issue. So that kind of zooming in and looking at the local level and urban planning, I thought, um, as you're saying is really interesting because it's around ok what's something that I might have a sense of control over, but also a way to motivate other people of what it is that they can do personally. Um, it's really cool.

Dr Erica McIntyre (21:57):
Yeah. And it's really the only way we can move forward I think, with this problem without a sense of hope you're paralyzed, you know, there, there are lots of good things happening. Um, so you know, there is hope.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (22:13):
Kind of demonstrates the personal passion that you have for it as well. This isn't the kind of topic that you get into, or the work that you get into to switch off at 5 or 5:30 and not think about anymore. Right? You, you have to have these personal and social values that are aligned with the work that you're doing.

Dr Erica McIntyre (22:28):
Yeah, yeah, you absolutely do. But you know, at the same time that can be exhausting even, you know, this works really important, but it's also, you know, you do have moments where it gets to you, for sure. You know, the climate, the grief is really real. Um, and the eco anxiety as well, keeping that in check for me and, and you know, this has been shown in some of the research as well, is that I've, I'm doing something about it and I'm lucky in that the work I do is part of that, even things like, and, and this is a big part of planetary health, doing things that have co-benefits for the environment. So if you are going to have an intervention in the urban environment, one that has co-benefits for human end, environmental health is going to, I guess, give you more bang for buck, right. Uh, and the same applies at the individual level. Like you could walk to work if, if that's practical for you instead of taking the car, because it's going to give you a physical and mental health benefit as well as being better for the environment, because you're not, you know, taking a car out and using petrol or whatever. If you take personal action to make a change that also decreases the kind of eco anxiety that you might be having around, you know, all the awful stuff that we hear about.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (23:50):
Sure. I was wondering if we could just unpack a little bit that study the built environment interventions for human and planetary health, because you're, you're already touching on it and talking about, so what are those things that we can do that might have planetary benefits, but also benefit the individual person? So I thought it was really awesome perspective to think about who are the professional groups that you could bring in, or be considering in targeting as an environmental psych and a public health researcher to make an impact. In the project you made the point that although the health system has a key role to play in addressing the health effects of human generated climate change. So do groups like urban and regional planners, urban designers, landscapers, and architects, that's a, a really interesting project to, to focus on for a sec. So is there anything else I know you've touched on some points from it, but was there anything else you wanted to highlight from that project?

Dr Erica McIntyre (24:49):
I was brought into that project at the same time I was, I was brought into the environmental trust one on contamination. So that was, uh, with a big team of people. So the idea was that the evidence that we collected around what elements of high density urban environments had a, uh, health impact was going to be used to help inform planning policy. That's sort of more of the work that we we're actually currently doing that kind of work. And the whole idea is that, you know, we wanna be looking at how we can help urban planners and policy makers to create healthier places. Some of the work we've been doing in that area looks at retrofitting, if you like, so changing an existing area into something that's a bit more healthier. So that might be looking at, you know, places in the environment that we can, we can change we the capacity to change.

Dr Erica McIntyre (25:48):
So it could be transforming a dead end street into a park, for example, you know, having the benefits of green space and increasing in, in high density, urban environments, increasing green spaces, which we know has a benefit on, um, mental health access to green space. One of the projects we've just been involved with is, wrote a discussion paper for healthy infrastructure, New South Wales, around place-based planning for health precincts. The idea with that is looking at how health precincts are just more than just a hospital and what the environment around health precincts can, how that can benefit health and wellbeing and the livability of a place considering things like reducing, you know, carbon footprint, um, CO2 emissions, things like that, but that directly impact the environment, but also how do those spaces, uh, how can they be designed so that they actually promote health and wellbeing? In addition to the clinical services that they're accessing. Spaces where people can meet and socialize that, uh, are in nature so they can have a biophilic effect and things like that.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (27:02):
It, it's got me wondering, are there, um, you know, medical precincts or parts of a city either in Australia or internationally where you or the team have been like, yes, that's ideal. That's the kind of thing that is, you know, someone listening could Google and get a sense of yeah, right. I, I can see how this might be different to what my local emergency or hospital is like.

Dr Erica McIntyre (27:25):
Oh yeah, for sure. So Singapore have done some incredible work in this area. They are way ahead of us in terms of that idea of, um, place based planning and integrating, you know, green space and the natural environment, uh, with the built environment for health benefits.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (27:41):
Mmm.

Dr Erica McIntyre (27:42):
This hospital that I'm the of, it actually has things like community gardens where people can actually come and learn how to garden. And it's actually on the hospital site, actually, I think it's on the roof of the hospital, um, from memory.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (27:56):
Cool.

Dr Erica McIntyre (27:57):
Yeah. It's incredible when you see this building and throughout the hospital itself inside as well, it has plants throughout. So it, the idea is that the overall design promotes health. You're not just going to a concrete building, getting a clinical service and leaving, the entire environment is promoting health and wellbeing, but not just for the patient that other visitors at the site and the people who work there as well. Uh, a good Australian example is, uh, Bendigo.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (28:24):
Mmm.

Dr Erica McIntyre (28:26):
Yep. Bendigo, that's a relatively new precinct. And, um, yeah, they've done some fantastic work on that site. They've actually worked with a local Aboriginal community there, and they've created, uh, a lot of great plantings with indigenous plants to the area, increased the biodiversity as well. And that's coming back to those co-benefits, they're looking at increasing local biodiversity, which is good for the planet, but they're also, you know, connecting, um, with culture, with country and increasing that natural environment is also having those added health benefits.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (29:04):
That makes a lot of sense. That's, uh, appreciating those knowledge holders and skill holders that have placed an emphasis on the environment and connection and sustainability of the environment, learning from those traditional knowledge holders of how to embrace the environment and have a sustainable approach to, to living.

Dr Erica McIntyre (29:27):
Yeah, absolutely. And look planetary health isn't a new construct. It's what Indigenous populations know. It is their traditional knowledge. It's kind of embarrassing to think that we've created this term called planetary health. And it's actually what Indigenous populations have been living, you know? [laughs]

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (29:45):
Yeah.

Dr Erica McIntyre (29:45):
But because we've sort of have labeled it, Westernized it it's now credible it, yeah. It's embarrassing to think that how it had to be recognized as being important is to Westernize it it's, it's gross. Sorry. I have, I have a real issue with it, you know that...

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (30:01):
No, it is. Perfect phrase. It's gross and it's embarrassing. Yeah.

Dr Erica McIntyre (30:08):
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (30:09):
When you gave that example of Singapore, I instantly got what you meant. I went to a conference, uh, maybe 2017 in Singapore and just driving, you know, into the city from the airport and driving around the integration of, you know, plants on the sides of buildings, you know, whole sides of buildings. I think we're seeing that more in Melbourne, but the first time I think I saw it in Australia is, is this really cool building near UTS [University of Technology Sydney] in Sydney, right on Spice Alley [a collection of Asian eateries] and it has that, I think it's got a massive platform, but it has that beautiful, you know, cascading plants down the side of it. It's, instantly changes how you feel as a human, when you're looking through a landscape of cement and buildings, and then you see this beautiful green cascade of plants down the side of a building, instantly when I would see it on the train coming into this city, I would feel happy. [laughs]

Dr Erica McIntyre (31:04):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's what they refer to as biophilic design. So it's integrating that natural environment with the built environment and yeah, well, we do know, we know that people, when they have access to green space and, and there's, you know, emerging evidence about the access to blue space as well, and the impact on mental health, it definitely has benefits. You know, it does make us feel better. You know, ultimately we need to be connected with our natural environment, Indigenous cultures know this, and it's quite sad that we've lost that connection and that respect that is innate. So I'd like to, I think that, um, we're slowly getting it back, but I'd like to see it happen a lot faster.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (31:49):
[laughing] We're not, we're not gonna be patient about this. Let's just make it happen already.

Dr Erica McIntyre (31:53):
That's right. Not that easy.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (31:56):
We have covered a lot of ground in a short period of time...

Dr Erica McIntyre (32:00):
[laughs] Yep.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (32:00):
...And this is a topic and an episode that, yeah, I, it has made me think a lot and feels like me personally, you know, there was aspects of this conversation and things that I read in your work that felt like a bit of a personal call to action. And I consider myself generally someone who tries to be mindful and do things that are sustainable, and to connect to nature. But I think that, you know, it's really easy to slip back into routine and forget about the importance of some of these things. So I really appreciate you coming along and having a chat. And I know that there'll be people listening who will wanna keep up to date with the things that you're doing. So I'm wondering where can we send them, what's the best place for them to follow the work that you're doing or to reach out to you?

Dr Erica McIntyre (32:47):
Sure. Well, I'm on Twitter.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (32:48):
Highly recommend following Erica on Twitter.

Dr Erica McIntyre (32:52):
[laughs] Yeah, it's a, yeah, I kind of, I have the odd rant and um, but that's okay. Um, I love Twitter. I love Twitter. Yes. And I, I look, I have a blog, but it's not very well kept, I'll say that much, but my intention is to do something with it one day, but otherwise, um, yeah, I'm on Google Scholar. You can look at my published work there also, you can contact me through, um, the University of Technology [Sydney] at the Institute of Sustainable Futures as well. I'm in the Healthy Environments research area there. Um, so if you'd like to know more about the work that we are doing, that's where you can find me. And I guess I just wanted to say to Jaz is that I really don't want people to feel guilty about not doing enough when it comes to the environment, because everybody has different capacities. Some people can do more than others. Part of that capacity is, is constrained by the system that you're in as well. You know, whatever it is that's right for you is okay. You know, even if it's, you're doing the recycling right. Yeah. I really don't, you know that guilt around not doing enough isn't helpful. It's paralyzing, just choose one thing, you know that you can do. And, um, you know, that's, that one thing is better than nothing.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (34:10):
That's a really nice point, an important takeaway towards the end of the discussion that we've had, because there are socioeconomic aspects and a range of, um, you know, the ways that privilege and resources impact the choices we have in terms of the products that we consume and the places that we live. And yeah, I think that's a really important takeaway. So yeah. Thank you for making that point.

Dr Erica McIntyre (34:35):
Yeah, no, that's okay. And that's why we need to change our systems. [laughs] Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (34:41):
Totally. I'm wondering as well, if there is any last things that you wanted to point out that, you know, like, um, some shameless self promotion, because we often are really busy doing the work and not promoting the work that we are doing. [laughs] Is there anything coming up or, um, outputs that you'd like to point people towards?

Dr Erica McIntyre (35:02):
Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I guess we've got, what have we got coming up? We're actually in the process of working on some proposals and things at the moment and initiating new research. So there's nothing specific to look out for. Actually, one thing to look out for is, uh, I was involved recently in an increasing resilience to climate change project that was a collaboration with local health districts and local councils across the Western Parkland city area in Sydney. We developed a research paper as part of that to inform the development of guidelines for local councils, uh, to help them to implement climate change resilience and sustainability strategies.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (35:48):
Cool.

Dr Erica McIntyre (35:48):
That's a collaboration with the Climate and Health Alliance and I strongly recommend you check out their work. Uh, they do fantastic and we'll probably be doing further work in that area. So that's all I've got at the moment.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (36:03):
Awesome. That's all. [Laughs] That's no mean feat, my friend. Fantastic. Um, alright, well, it is Friday afternoon as we record this episode. Any plans for the weekend?

Dr Erica McIntyre (36:17):
Yeah. More Bush walking. So I'm very lucky. I live in the Blue Mountains and, uh, actually just before this podcast, uh, that we've got this great loop around the back of our place that overlooks the escarpment into the Kanimbla Valley. And so I did that loop with my dog. I'll probably be doing that loop again.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (36:34):
Well, I hope that you enjoy your, uh, bush walking. I know that you are staffy will, as a fellow staffy lover. [laughs]

Dr Erica McIntyre (36:43):
Yeah.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (36:44):
And yeah, I just really wanna thank you again for taking the time Erica, the work you're doing is really interesting and, and important, and I know that listeners will really enjoy, um, hearing about your experiences and your insights. So thank you so much.

Dr Erica McIntyre (36:58):
Awesome, thanks Jaz.

Dr Jasmine B. MacDonald (37:02):
For those of you at home, that's all for today. Show notes for the episode can be found at www.psychattack.com. If you've enjoyed listening to Psych Attack, please rate it on your favorite podcast platform and share this episode to help other people find the show. If you have questions or feedback, you can reach out on Twitter [or Facebook] (@psychattackcast). Thanks for listening. And we'll catch up with you again next time.